Uncooperative Builder...

[drozwood90]

Are you tied to buying this particular home? What is stoping you from walking away now?

Location, baby on the way, do not like affording 2 houses 1 apartment, 1 storage unit for previous house's stuff, and the $4K I gave them as a deposit.

Plus, I was able to lock in at 5% on my mortgage.

The house is really a perfect design for us.

As a NOTE:

To answer the question about skill. I gutted and rebuilt my last home (to code...but properly to code, none of this crap the builder is pulling). I am a Computer Engineer...so electricity is my friend.

---

I was able to talk to the company that is doing the LV stuff. They figure they can put in 3 future tubes ( was going to go with only 1, and put the others in myself at a later date...but...), 2 for HV one for LV. They "know" the electrical company that is doing the work. So, they will have the electrical company put in a bunch of HV boxes for me, at no cost to me. They also stated that they will pull string to the boxes for me.

So long as the electrical company starts and stops in the right places, I'll be able to either pull new wire through the string method (I'm hoping I only need to pull 2-3 of those). The other 10 or so, I am thinking will be inside walls. So, I can just pull it later myself.

--Dan

 

[Ranger Digital]

I work for a builder here in the Northeast, and I will try to shed some light on this subject.

There are a couple of different situations that come into play when building a house.

1. A private individual buys a peice of property to build a house on. This person (owner of property) Hires contractors to build his house. He either hires a general contractor to get the job done or he acts as the general contractor and is responsible for hiring all the contractors. In this situation the owner has total control over the development of his property, as long as he adheres to all building codes and has the proper insurance. He may have a construction loan on this property, but the bank does not own the property, unless he defaults.

2. A builder/developer buys a piece of property and divides the porperty into building lots. This is what we do. We start out building spec houses on this property (they usually sell before they are finished). Once this project is started, the property is owned by the builder/developer, not the bank. This means that all that happens on this property, the builder/develpoer is liable for (fire, personal injuryand adherance to local building codes). Now, Mr. John Q. public wants to buy a house that is under construction, we then enter into a contract to complete this home as per the original plans. If the buyer wishes to make changes to the original plans there will be additional costs of course. However, the buyer does not own that property until the house is complete, a certificate of occupancy is issued, and you go to closing. At the end of closing is when the buyer owns the property. This is why contractors are resistant to future owners doing work on the house. Now as far as gouging the buyer for extras goes, well that all depends on how honorable the company is that you chose to do business with.

3. In a large develpoment (100's of homes) its almost impossible to get a builder to diviate from the original plans, even when it comes to LV wiring. This is because there are deadlines to be met. It also becomes a nightmare to manage change orders.

Basically, it all comes down to liability and adhering to local building codes so the house would pass CO inspection.

I hope this makes sense.

T., makes perfect sense. Similar to what I said about "spec" houses. Whats nice with your company is that you are building spec houses with no bank/construction loans. Nice. I would bet money though that if "john" came in and bought a lot, there is a loan in the buyers name.

 

[Sacedog]

I was able to talk to the company that is doing the LV stuff. They figure they can put in 3 future tubes ( was going to go with only 1, and put the others in myself at a later date...but...), 2 for HV one for LV. They "know" the electrical company that is doing the work. So, they will have the electrical company put in a bunch of HV boxes for me, at no cost to me. They also stated that they will pull string to the boxes for me.

Nice. This should work for you well for putting wire in after you move in. It might be more of a pain, as the walls are closed, but you will have latitude with what you do.

 

[TCassio]

Digital,
We do use bank/construction loans. These type of loans are different in the traditional sense. Before we can get a construction load, we have to show some sort of equity, weather it be in that peice of property or in stocks on in my home, or have some startup money. Lets say we have $100,000 startup money, now we use that to purchase the property. Now the bank will say okay that property is worth $100,000, so we'll lend you $100,000. You take that 100 and put it in the property and the bank goes thru the cycle again until the house is complete.

Anyway, my point was that even if there is a bank loan involved, the Banks do not own the property, the have a Lein against the property in case you default. That also holds thru for any unpaid subs that you hire. If they are not paid the can place a Lein on that house. When the house is complete and you go to closing, before title of that property can change hands, you have to supply a lein wavier from every sub who worked on that house.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Tcas. Nice follow up. Appreciated.

 

[felixrosbergen]

wow gents...amazingly good timing on this thread...

I am looking at what i guess woudl be considered a 'track' home..

The developer bought a property and dividied it into 10 lots. They have sold 2 so far and are planning starting to build soon building those 2 and 1 or 2 spec homes.

We have not signed yet and we would home #3 that is sold before they start building.

So far our meetings with these guys have been really good, and several people have already told me they know the company and they are very reputable.

Basically they have a basic plan with a list of 'features' and are pretty much willing to change anything.

So far we have discussed:
- They told me any parition wall in the house can be moved at no additional cost. I get to have a meeting with the designer/drafter before they make the detail framing plans.
- Opening between rooms can be turned into arches for $250 per opening (seems reasonable)
- Replace regular tub with K-1227 Whirlpool Tub (w/jets) 42x60x20 for an extra $2500
- Upgrade appliances from standard offering (GE Profile) to stainless steel for extra $1800
- Hardwood floors in familu room (13'x20') instead of carpet $1650 extra

Does this sound reasonable or coughy? The home is 2500sqf on 1 acre lot for $575k in Connecticut.

I have told them several times about additional wiring for HA and they have not balked at it. It sounds like i will just meet with their electrical sub before we sign and define what we want. I'll be sure to check the contract that they need to supply breakdows for changes and have a fixed markup.

Basically because they're only building 3 or 4 at a time they consider each home pretty much unique and are willing to modify as you wish. They do want 50% of any upgrades up front which i think is reasonable since they may not recoup. I told them i would not pay even the 50% untill they are actually read to do that work. E.g. i won't pay for the additional LV wiring untill further down the track.

Who does the LV installation typically? The electrical contractor? The basic plans for this house only include phone/catv in each room, would they really have a sub for this or just have the electrician do it?

My plan is to make an offer on the home and then go into a month long defintion period where i sit with them and their subs and we further define the kitchen/wiring/etc before we actually sign the final agreement. This shoudl limit a lot of the change order and means that they can't screw me yet because i can still wall away. Hopefully they will go for this.

Sorry for the rant...it's an exciting time coming up and i hope it all works out....good to see others are going the process..

 

[politics123]

wow gents...amazingly good timing on this thread...
Replace regular tub with K-1227 Whirlpool Tub (w/jets) 42x60x20 for an extra $2500

One thing to consider: cleaning. Whirlpool tubs are sold as luxury items, but nobody warns you about how hard it is to clean the plumbing. Most units have areas in the piping that hold water, which means you can never truly flush them out. I have a bunch of friends that eventually gave up and stopped using theirs, since it was so hard to clean afterward. If you aren't able to clean them (and, many times, even if you do), those areas turn green and smell. You'll send through an aweful lot of bleach trying to rid yourself of the uninvited guests.

If you have your heart set on a whirlpool tub, make sure you get a "self draining" unit.

 

[Ranger Digital]

Mav, typically if you ONLY have PC and phone, the electrician would install it and not a special LV contractor. We need to CHANGE that however as many electricians are completely CLUELESS on LV. I have see satelite cable run right besides HV down entire lengths of house. They just are not educated on what goes where. Electricians should be banned from doing LV or go thru additional training to get a special license. lol. (I am sure there are some "special" lv contractors that need some training as well)

 

[Photon]

When I examined the work the LV contractor did on the houses my builder sent me to, I found screw-on connectors on the RG6 cable, staples not only deforming the cable but also piercing the outer insulation in some cases. The Cat-5e phone cable was kinked, badly stapled, and poorly terminated. I'd expect the same thing if I ordered network cable. That is why I proposed to my builder that we leave out all low voltage wiring and instead provide a half dozen or so empty boxes with smurf tube to the basement at designated locations in outside walls. He probably saved some money, and I was saved the chore of ripping out all the wiring before I could install it correctly. The bonus to me was not having to disturb the insulation and vapor barrier in the outside walls because of the boxes and conduit I would not have otherwise had.

While I think this LV contractor is an exception to the rule, I strongly recommend anyone who is ready to pay a contractor to pull and terminate a low voltage distribution system request to see some of his work.

 

[drozwood90]

When I examined the work the LV contractor did on the houses my builder sent me to, I found screw-on connectors on the RG6 cable, staples not only deforming the cable but also piercing the outer insulation in some cases. The Cat-5e phone cable was kinked, badly stapled, and poorly terminated. I'd expect the same thing if I ordered network cable. That is why I proposed to my builder that we leave out all low voltage wiring and instead provide a half dozen or so empty boxes with smurf tube to the basement at designated locations in outside walls. He probably saved some money, and I was saved the chore of ripping out all the wiring before I could install it correctly. The bonus to me was not having to disturb the insulation and vapor barrier in the outside walls because of the boxes and conduit I would not have otherwise had.

While I think this LV contractor is an exception to the rule, I strongly recommend anyone who is ready to pay a contractor to pull and terminate a low voltage distribution system request to see some of his work.

Photon,

What is smurf tube?

Do you think I should have that installed, instead of pull strings (which is kind of where I settled on)?

--Dan

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Smurf tubing is a corregated thin wall plastic tubing, usually around an inch or less in diameter. I highly suggest the builder install pull strings as running wire through this stuff (especially for long distances with many bends) is a challenge.

 

[Photon]

What BSR said. They come in several diameters; just remember they are never big enough.

http://www.hometech.com/techwire/resigard....CFQijPAodZ1dxMg

You can find the stuff at Home Depot, etc in the electrical dept. Orange or blue.

I've had great success sucking pull cord through an empty duct with a shop vac. Just tie a cotton ball to the cord and let it go.

 

[politics123]

What BSR said. They come in several diameters; just remember they are never big enough.

http://www.hometech.com/techwire/resigard....CFQijPAodZ1dxMg

You can find the stuff at Home Depot, etc in the electrical dept. Orange or blue.

I've had great success sucking pull cord through an empty duct with a shop vac. Just tie a cotton ball to the cord and let it go.

Note: Orange for low voltage, blue for high voltage. Also, I believe code requires < 270 degrees of "bend," but try to keep the total curvature < 180 for easy pulling

 

[Sacedog]

http://www.hometech.com/techwire/resigard....CFQijPAodZ1dxMg

You can find the stuff at Home Depot, etc in the electrical dept. Orange or blue.

TSelectronic.com has slightly better prices:

https://www.tselectronic.com/carlon/resi_raceway.html

Also, I checked at my Home Depot when I was there yesterday. They only carry the 3/4" Carlon flexible tubing in both orange and blue. They only length they sold were 25' lengths.

 

[drozwood90]

http://www.hometech.com/techwire/resigard....CFQijPAodZ1dxMg

You can find the stuff at Home Depot, etc in the electrical dept. Orange or blue.

TSelectronic.com has slightly better prices:

https://www.tselectronic.com/carlon/resi_raceway.html

Also, I checked at my Home Depot when I was there yesterday. They only carry the 3/4" Carlon flexible tubing in both orange and blue. They only length they sold were 25' lengths.

Well, had my meeting with the electrician today (sans PM).

He actually made it such that I won't need to worry about adding boxes after he finishes. He showed me where to drill and how to fish using a fish line. Even suggested that I drill the holes I want now, as I can see where I want them. Then, the builder will just seal all the holes up with foam so the house passes the Energy Star Rating for air infiltration.

Even on outside walls. He was showing me a wire fisher...it looked like a thing you put down the sewar to clean it out...except it was flush and almost pointed on the end. He just said, turn off the power to the circuit, fish the wire through from the box, down into the hole in the footer (into the basement), or UP into the attic. Go that way, as it will be easier to hit the larger drill hole, than the smaller BOX hole. basically get it near the hole, then use a pair of needle nose pliers to snag the end of the fisher, pull it through. The fisher will pierce the insulation in a way that when I tape the 12-2 on the end of it, and pull the wire back up/down, it will NOT bunch the insulation. He suggested practice on an inside wall first. To get the hang of wielding the wire.

So, looks like I will be able to save all the $$ needed for the LV guy. I'll just have him put in the original future tube that he was going to put in. Then I'll have him drop an Ethernet line to my entertainment room, just so I'll have that there immediately...and I don't have to fish anything until I want to. I may as well have the media player setup (hence the need for the Ethernet line to the entertainment area from the server! Streaming movies baby!). As for adding more future tubes, since the chase was goofed up, my wife and I changed the chase on site to fit better into the house. As such, the HVAC guy and plumbing were able to fit everything in where they needed. I now have room to add 2-3 2" - 3" tubes of my own later on. I plan to open the wall in my closet and add an access door, so I can get at the plumbing in that wall, as well as drill out the floor of the second floor to get room for a pipe to pass through the chase from the basement (easy to drill) to the second floor (drilled out by using the access door), then the attic (climb up there and drill).

I'm pre-marking all the area that the chase takes up in the attic. The basement will be easy as there is a box made up of joists, the other floor...well, it's encased in a wall. So, I pick a common point, measure out and drill 3 pieces, run the PVC pipe from the basement upwards (gluing the 10' pieces together as I push it up). So, that saves me $150+ per tube, as well as $100/Ethernet drop, and $75 per box with string! Whoo hoo!

So, looks like this weekend I'll be drilling holes.

--Dan