UPB dimmer neutral issue

[Deane Johnson]

I'm experimenting with a Pulseworx dimmer to see how I like UPB. Just discovered that the way my wall switch is wired is that the electrician has simply run a two wire plus ground piece of romax down from the fixture to the box. This means there is a hot wire, a load wire, and a ground available.

Has anyone been successful just using the ground for a neutral with UPB. Any problems. Good idea, bad idea?

Does this mean I should forget UPB as a possibility for me? If so, what does work in these situations?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Deane

 

[oberkc]

Has anyone been successful just using the ground for a neutral with UPB. Any problems. Good idea, bad idea?

I do not use UPB (rather, insteon), but I believe the concepts are the same. I understand that using the ground as neutral is a bad idea (safety, etc). I suspect that this is also a code violation, for what it is worth.

You can repurpose the wires from the fixture to the switch, but that would eliminate the option of using the switch as controller for the load. I have done this several times, but from receptacle to switch only. I lose switch control of the receptacle, but I can live with that. As an alternative, are there UPB devices that are mounted within the fixture box? If so, you could use that to control the load and link the switch to the box device.

Obviously, you can run a new cable. This may or may not be more work than it is worth.

 

[wuench]

A couple of things you should ask yourself...

1.) If your house burns down, are you willing to risk your insurance company not paying out because it was discovered your wiring wasn't up to code?
2.) Even though you are aware of what you did, and are comfortable with the risks, is this going to pose an issue or danger to a future home owner or contractor who assumed you wired according to code?

 

[Deane Johnson]

I think it's rather clear I should not use the ground wire.

I'm going to abandon UPB for that reason and for the moment stick with Z-Wave.

I appreciate the comments that have been made. Here, and elsewhere, the response has been "don't do it".

Deane

 

[pete_c]

I am wondering now when or if what the standards have been for romex electrical wiring house installations?

I started to replace the switches in FL (initially just X-10) and noticed that all the romex is three wire plus a ground lead. It was built around 2000. Each box has all of the ground leads wired together.

Here in the MW almost done with the second floor (UPB) with both PCS/SA - still playing - so have a "few" Z-Wave light modules in place (that and the old X10/Insteons's still in place). Conduit electrical and there's a neutral in every box - built in around 2002.

 

[Penman]

I think it's rather clear I should not use the ground wire.

I'm going to abandon UPB for that reason and for the moment stick with Z-Wave.

I appreciate the comments that have been made. Here, and elsewhere, the response has been "don't do it".

Deane

You definitely don't want to use the ground for a neutral.

I ran into a problem similar to yours, and here was my solution:

I had access to the attic near the fixture, and at the fixture there was everything (i.e. hot, neutral, and ground). I placed the PCS UPB switch in a closed electrical box in the attic near the light, and then installed a UPB slave switch in the wall. UPB slave switches only need two wires to control the main UPB switch (although with two wires, the LED nightlight on them won't light). This, in effect, turned the master switch into a "fixture module". Everything is correct with respect to grounds, etc. when you do it this way. Also, if you do this, don't forget to initially program the switch before you put it in the attic.

Another reason you don't want to use a ground as a neutral is if you have ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCI). It will cause them to trip, as the current will be returning to ground through a path other than neutral.

 

[cornutt]

Here in the MW almost done with the second floor (UPB) with both PCS/SA - still playing - so have a "few" Z-Wave light modules in place (that and the old X10's still in place). Conduit electrical and there's a neutral in every box - built in around 2002.

Interesting. Don't know if that's code where you are, but it definitely isn't anywhere around here. When we built our house, I had it put in the contract that the electrician must not use switch loops, but the builder failed to supervise the installation and some switch loops snuck in (and the drywall went up before I found out about them). Best option for a switch loop location, other than going wireless, is probably to put in a fixture module into the box at the fixture, assuming that there's room.

 

[pete_c]

Most of the neighbors have romex installed.

I didn't notice the neutrals in every switch box until I started to replace the switches 7 years ago.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm with oberkc - in my last house, I ran into that situation a lot - the trick is to repurpose the wires at both ends so that it's hot and neutral - leaving nothing to carry the load; you then wire the fixture through a upb fixture module (unless it's an out let, in which case you can wire it always live and use a lamp module) - much better than dimming an outlet anyway!.

Of course, it sounds like it may not be worth it - but if it is, it's totally doable.