Using UPB Switch with Two Switches

[WithoutATrace]

Good Evening,

I just started putting in a large installation and ran into an issue. Many of the lights in this house have two or more switches. You know, two switches on opposite sides of the room control one light. The problem is, the gang box on one has three wires plus a ground. Two red and one black. Wiring the known hot to the UPB switch, and the "common" from the original switch to the neutral, the last one must be the load!

The switch seems to work ok, but when you click it on, the light doesn't turn on! If you flip the switch on the other side, it seems to turn the load wire into a hot wire. Is there something simple I'm missing here or do I need to install a UPB switch on both?

 

[Desert_AIP]

Is there no neutral in the box?
The switches require a neutral to operate.

I think your identity of the wires may be incorrect.

 

[WithoutATrace]

The strange thing is what happens with the voltage detector.
 
In this image, left to right:
 
Ground going into green.
Hot going into black.
Load going into red.
Neutral going into white.
 

 
The switch powers on in the LED sequence blue-red-red-blue-magenta. After that I can't seem to get the switch to do anything. And if I flip the switch on the other side of the room, the load wire becomes a hot wire.
 
Do I need to install a UPB dimmer into both sides of this circuit? i.e. Replace both switches to control one light?

 

[WithoutATrace]

Actually I'm afraid you may be correct. I think I just have a whole bunch of 3-way switches but they're ultimately ran with 2-Wire Romex.
 
Does this more or less mean I have a ton of really expensive switches that I can't use? Or is there a way to retrofit existing wiring to include a neutral?

 

[Frunple]

My first thought, based on how you're explaining this, is to get an electrician or someone who understand wiring.
 
If you insist on doing this yourself then you need to figure out which box is wired to the load. Typically the hot will come in to one box, with the load coming out of the other. There can be times when the hot goes to the light itself first, then the switches are wired from there and there are times when the hot and load come out of the same box, this being the easiest to wire but usually end up with no common going to the other box.
 
Once you figure out which wiring they went with, the UPB switch needs to be wired to control the load ITSELF. IOW without the remote switch installed, the light should completely function correctly. Then you wire the remote switch in, which doesn't actually control the load, it controls the UPB switch.
 
There is usually a way to run the load wire from the main box to the other if the load comes out of the opposite box as the hot.
 
This is all assuming you are using remote switches and not links to act as a 3 way.

 

[tmbrown97]

Your neutral (from the switch) isn't going into white, it's going into a red wire with paint/compound on it.
 
Usually White is neutral, Red is traveler, and Black is load.
 
What I've had to do in the past is take the switches off both sides then take a voltage meter to find out which wire is hot - then trace which wires go between the two switches; whichever is left is the load.  The load can be at either end - either the same place as the Hot, or at the remote end; either is workable with UPB switches as long as there's a neutral in the box.  The neutral is usually the white wires which are all tied together in the back of the box; with regular switches they're not used, but they need to be pulled out for the electronic switches.  The only time I've seen a box with no neutral is when the wire was re-coded as hot with electrical tape, such as an "end of run" switch.  The fact that we see red and black wires in your box and it's romex, tells me the Whites are still tied up in the back.
 
Here's a primer on the different types of 3-way circuits:
http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm
 
Edit: I can see your neutrals tied into the back of the box - you just didn't use them.

 

[ano]

Work2Play is correct. Just read up on 3-way circuits.  You can use these for UPB with two switches just fine.  Basically the load (the light) is wired to one side, the source (breaker box) is wired to the other, and two "traveler" wires connect the two.  What you need do is use one of the red wires to carry the load wire to the other box.  Then install a UPB switch in the source side box to control the light.  Then you use the other red wire (and remark it) to feed the neutral to the first box.  You install a second UPB switch there, but this UPB switch is powered only. It doesn't physically control the light. Rather it sends a link to the first switch to control the light.  As discussed before, there are three-way UPB remotes, but they are bad and not recommended if you want a professional installation. Use the switches you purchased. If you are unsure on the wiring, you may want to get an electrician in to show you the first time. But two "regular" UPB switches should be able to do what you need with some wire changing and remarking.

 

[tmbrown97]

You had me until this part:

As discussed before, there are three-way UPB remotes, but they are bad and not recommended if you want a professional installation. 

 
I totally disagree, although I realize people have differing opinions...  I won't bother to retype - I just wrote my reasons in a thread recently here:
 
I actually like the USR's and find them to be more powerful and flexible than people give them credit for, and in most cases far prefer them over using a link-only switch.  I think there's a little more about it in my UPB article in my signature too.

 

[Frunple]

You had me until this part:
 
I totally disagree, although I realize people have differing opinions...  I won't bother to retype - I just wrote my reasons in a thread recently here:
 
I actually like the USR's and find them to be more powerful and flexible than people give them credit for, and in most cases far prefer them over using a link-only switch.  I think there's a little more about it in my UPB article in my signature too.

To add to this, the OP is trying to use a UPB switch on one end and an actual 3 way switch (non UPB) on the other. 
So Ano should probably pay more attention before telling the OP that what he is doing is right.

 

[pete_c]

Personally here for my 3-way's I had travelers, load, hot and neutral wires in the box.  This was though in conduit; such that if I wanted to change something (coloring wise I pulled new cable).
 
In another home with romex the electrical just ran 3-wire plus ground to every box with some 3rd wires being utilized; all the same colors in the romex.
 
That said I wouldn't always trust the coloring schema utilized for what is what.
 
Its a real PITA but I would pull all of the wires out of the boxes in question and validate each one using a multimeter / tester or as specified above hire an electrician.  I have also pulled wires out for the overhead lighting sometimes just to make sure.  Its very time consuming but better than second guessing coloring schemas logic for 3 way wiring.
 
Here though the electrician utilized typically white for neutral, black for hot and whatever for a traveler and whatever for a load.  (orange, red, blue, yellow). 

 

[ano]

To add to this, the OP is trying to use a UPB switch on one end and an actual 3 way switch (non UPB) on the other. 
So Ano should probably pay more attention before telling the OP that what he is doing is right.

And it says it where that this is the only solution he will accept?
 
The remote switches available today are much better than the ones available when I tried to use them, but they still have limits.  One limit is if you want the color indicating blue/green LED to work, you need hot and neutral on both sides. That usually isn't the case.  There are some "iffy" ways around this by using ground instead of neutral, but its not a good idea to do that, but that discussion is way beyond this thread.
 
Using two UPB switches works when you DON'T have hot and neutral on each side, does cost more, but is also more flexible.  If you know two switch locations will always control one light, and if hot and neutral are on both sides, the remotes are fine.  If you want to "repurpose" a switch, using two UPB switches lets you do that.
 
There is even yet another way it can be wired that offers even more flexibility but costs even more.  Don't control any loads with switches, and use switch only to generate links.  Use load modules to control loads.  I have done this in a few instances, and it works pretty good.  Its not a solution for everyone, but it is an option to look at.

 

[Frunple]

And it says it where that this is the only solution he will accept?

It has nothing to do with what he would accept.
He's on the verge of burning down his house and you say he's doing things right.

 

[tmbrown97]

One limit is if you want the color indicating blue/green LED to work, you need hot and neutral on both sides. 

I've even gotten around this in some cases - while not perfect, places where I had a 3-way that didn't have a Hot nearby, I hooked the LED to the load - so the LED dims with the light, and if the light is on, so is the LED... it's not perfect but I get a lot of use of the double-tap function controlling a separate link, and that wouldn't be possible with link-only switches.
 
Also, using two UPB switches ALWAYS requires a hot and neutral at both sides, but it can get around needing a traveler so the traveler can be repurposed as a hot or neutral as needed.
 
I do have one or two places where I've totally repurposed a 3-way for something else - in those rare cases I have link-only switches (like my master bedroom foyer with 2 switches that I can literally touch at the same time to control the same light).
 
Someday it'd be fun to diagram out how I did my lighting here as a use case - I think it would show some good examples of what all is possible...