UPB wire length restrictions?

[mikefamig]

Does UPB have a wire length restriction? I am installing an Elk M1 in my home which is only 2000 square feet but I also want to control lights in my detached garage which has a 250' AC line feeding power to it.
 
My questions is wheteher the Elk pim-e will control switches over that length or even further. It also occurred to me that maybe I could have one pim-e in the house and one in the garage with different addresses on the elk data bus....or is that even possible?
 
Thanks in advance, Mike.

 

[neillt]

UPB is pretty resilient.  I don't think 250' is really that far to be honest.
 
If you don't have a phase repeater, now would be the time to install one though.

 

[Desert_AIP]

I have UPB in a 3200 sqft house and two outbuildings.
I placed the phase couplers (2) in the shop sub panel which in turn feeds the other outbuilding.
I don't have any problems with comms among any of the buildings or my Omni panel in the main house.

 

[mikefamig]

So please tell me if I understand this correctly.
 
A complete UPB system would contain:
 
A PIM-E to communicate with my Elk control
A phase coupler/repeater for the main panel and sub panel in my house and the third panel in my garage.
A few switches
and a CIM with upstart to program the switches.
 
Have I forgoten anything?
 
Mike.

 

[neillt]

I am not an Elk guy so I can't comment on the PIM-E stuff.
 
But yes, at least one phase coupler would be a good bet.... I see that Elk has a special PIM that isn't a regular serial interface, so yeah you will need a PIM just to program devices.
 
I think you are there.  You will also need the UPStart software, which you can download online.

 

[pete_c]

Here too I am not an Elk person but did settle on a UPB repeater after initially using a phase couplers. 
 
I also went to having a floating UPB PIM for checking and programming with Upstart; leaving the UPB PIM always connected to the panel.
 
Here too all of the lighting is still incandescent and a few of the UPB switches are of the high amperage types linked in 3-way links to regular UPB switches.

 

[Desert_AIP]

I'm using the simply automated couplers, their effect is cumulative for boosting the signal strength.
You'll need at least one, but in a large install two really help.
All the sub panels and main panel should be interconnected, so it really doesn't matter where you install the couplers.
I chose the sub panel because I had room there.

I use a stand alone CIM with a computer to do all the programming.
You can "get by" time sharing an interface, but it is tedious and makes trouble shooting more difficult.

You may find you'll need noise filters as you go.
I had to add them to three banks of flourescent lights in my shop.
The only other noisy load I have is a cheap Chinese LED flood light, but I only use that as a flasher for the phone, so it never stays on for a long period.
If I used it as a flood light (or had a bank of them) it would need a noise filter.

 

[tmbrown97]

The Elk specific PIM is pretty new; you can still use an XSP with a regular serial PIM if you'd like as well; that's what I'm still using.  I have 3 PIMs stacked - one for the Elk, one for my Home Automation, and one for the Web Mountain RUC which I rarely use as intended, but use it for programming. 
 
I have not needed any filters, but I did end up using 3 phase couplers - I started with a single breaker-box mounted one, but I needed a little more of a boost, so I swapped that for a 4' circuit into my garage that houses 3 phase couplers side by side.  That boosted the low signal in one room of the house eliminating any coms issues.  That's for a 4K sq. ft. house.  With my old 2500 sq ft house, I didn't even use a phase coupler and had zero probs.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here utilize two HAI UPB Pims, 1 SA UPB serial PIM and 1 USB USB PIM talking to HAI, SA and PCS UPB switches. 
 
I am using the HAI UPB PIM for the HAI panel.  The SA Serial UPB PIM is connected to the automation software.  The second HAI UPB PIM is connected to a remote networked serial server (experiment).  The "wire" length for this PIM is probably the furthest away from the fuse panel three floors down to the basement and the opposite side of the home.  I built berms at the peripheral edges of the property with outdoor 120VAC boxes (for Christmas lights) and used UPB switches just fine for the holiday lighting.
 
The USB PIM is my floater.  
 
Relating to just using the OPII panel; I could really get by with one HAI UPB PIM and one USB UPB PIM as a floater.
 
I have no filters in place and see no noise with my UPB switches.  That said I have read of UPB signal suckers and noise generators.
 
I have read that there is a difference between the PCS USB and the SA USB PIM.  PCS is doing a USB to serial conversion while SA is not.  This did cause an issue for me when I tried to move the USB transport over to the network using a Digi USB Anywhere.
 
Initially here had the 2nd floor of a two story home using UPB.  At the time the rest of the home was still utilizing Insteon in wall switches.  Worked perfectly for a couple of years.  I did notice an on and off timeframe signal degradation that came sort of unexpectedly after a couple of years of UPB on the second floor.  I didn't see any noise though.  I then installed one phase coupler (PCS initially) and it never really helped much such that I then installed an HAI repeater which solved my issues.  I attributed my issues though to maybe the installation of an inground pool / pump next door; best guess?

 

[mikefamig]

OK I've learned a lot about UPB wiring here and what I've learned most is how little I know about UPB lighting. I've decided to hold off on planning any automation until the Elk is all running and I'm confident getting around in ElkRP. At this point I've only seen the system run on the bench for a day or two and still have a lot to learn.
 
I am pretty much sold on UPB over Z-wave for lighting based on what I've read about the Z-wave not being as dependable in the long run. I want a system that I can set it and forget it. Would anyone hold an argument in favor of Z-wave or any other technology over UPB for lighting?
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

I want a system that I can set it and forget it.

 
UPB switches are little self sufficient computers that utilize your powerline. 
 
From the wiki (well a bit biased)
 

UPB was developed by PCS Powerline Systems of Northridge, California and released in 1999. Based on the concept of the ubiquitous X10 standard, UPB has an improved transmission rate and higher reliability. While X10 without specialty firewalls has a reported reliability of 70-80%, UPB reportedly has a reliability of more than 99%.
UPB Wiki

 
They have "perfected" the use of an existing powerline transport.  
 
Personally RF is RF is RF.  Try as like; its not always that easy to control or manage. (Even a hybrid combo of powerline and wireless)
 
Note too that your investment in the HV lighting technology is not a trivial matter and its something you do not want to deal with in the future.  Today I rarely utilize Upstart unless I am posting signal levels or adding a switch.  I leave the UPB switches an network alone cuz it just works.
 
(thinking here its been over 10 K USD in switches and mostly I think about the labor relating to my time and efforts installing these switches).

 

[Desert_AIP]

I'd echo pete_c's comments.
Once programmed the UPB switches work.
And they work independently of any controller.