UPB, Z-Wave and Insteon - Pushing the limits

gengen

Member
I'm doing a major home remodel and I plan on installing a automated lighting system. After doing lots of research on-line, I'm coming down to either a UPB or Z-Wave system. I like Z-Wave because it looks to be better supported with more active development with a wider range of new devices and software. However, a few things give me cause for concern.

My plan for both a main house as well as a guest house call for over 100 nodes including switches, dimmers, wall controllers, HVAC, and switched receptacles. I also want room to grow the system later. First and foremost, I want an "all lights off" button near the entrance which I can press as I leave the house. Without this, any "Green" home claims would be moot.

Unfortunately, The Leviton ViziaRF+ software puts a limit of 31 nodes per "Area" and the Leviton training website specifically warns against an "All off" button among other restrictions, including not controlling a guest house.

My thinking was to use a Mi Casa Verdea Vera controller as the primary controller with perhaps a linked Vera in the guest house to work around these restrictions. If I go the UPB route, I would simply set up a "All Off" link that all of the switchers and dimmers would listen to.

Without having actually worked directly with either of these systems, I'm still somewhat confused about the Z-Wave concept of associations and Scenes. By comparison, UPB "Links" seem much more straight-forward. Is the ViziaRF+ concept of "Areas" inherent to the Z-Wave model or only to the Leviton software?

Does Vera actually work around these mimitations by routing scene requests to Vera rather than sending them directly from the wall controller to the switches? If so, can I still have local control of light switches even if the Vera goes down or is rebooting after a power failure?

Most of all, I want to hear from people who have set up 100+ node systems with either Z-Wave or UPB and get their success/horror stories.

Update: I'm expanding my search to also consider Insteon systems and I would really like to hear from people who have installed well over 50 nodes in one home.
 
You would probably just divide the all 60+ light system into upstairs/downstairs group and just issue two commands instead of one. There’s no technical reason for restricting the number to 30 loads for an "area". There is some controversy surrounding house size and node counts (http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/16089-leviton-says-max-30-35-devices-for-reliable-viziarf-z-wave-network/) – especially related to Leviton’s artificial restrictions.

I think the biggest problem with picking a 100+ node HA lighting technology is the size of investment and making it all work at scale.

A scene in Z-Wave is similar to a virtual switch that stores the light/load configuration. Each switch can have up to four scene identifiers. When controller (wall or secondary) activates a scene, then all devices matching specific identifier enable/disable their load along with corresponding dimming level.

Area is a "Leviton" term of Zone/Group (www.z-wave.com/frys/planning_installation/glossary.html).
 
I have a small UPB system with 8 switches. The biggest complaint I have, which would become more of an issue with a 100+ switches, is if two switches are pressed within a second of each other the status update for one of the switches is lost. With 100 devices and two houses I could see this happening more often. Not having used Z-Wave I can't comment on how it handles collisions.

I would also look at the CentraLite JetStream, which is ZigBee based. From the reading I've done it seems more robust than Z-Wave as far handling lost devices, etc. Both UPB and JetStream allow a dimmer switch to be configured as a non dimming switch. This allows you to easily upgrade from non dimming CFLs to dimming with just a quick reprogram of the switch. What I didn't like about the JetStream switches is that they are a button and not a rocker. When you press and hold to dim it goes the opposite of the previous direction.
 
I am at about 70 or so devices with UPB and I'm very happy with it. Of course we all know that Elk doesn't track status that well; but lately I've noticed that my status is generally accurate anyway - and without doing detailed monitoring, I've concluded that when Elve polls the switches to keep track of them, Elk is seeing the updates.

It's true - you can't just palm a couple switches at once like you probably do with manual switches; I've gotten around this a couple ways - by having a lot of switches set for double-tap to turn the whole room on/off (as I leave my office, a double-tap turns off the ceiling light, bathroom overhead, bathroom vanity, and desk lamps)... rooms like the Master Bedroom, I have a scene switch on the way out (was part of a 3 way originally in the master foyer) - one press of that on the way out covers the closets, the water closet, and every load in the bedroom (about 9 switches).

I've read the stories about people having to rebuild their Z-Wave networks a lot - and while I have no experience doing it, it makes me shudder to think of the hassles.

I love that I can have things like christmas outlets and lamp/appliance modules that are put away most of the year, then around christmas or Halloween, I hook the lights up and they're magically on the timer already coming on at sunset and going off at set times; and I can repurpose them into different areas any they always work without having to relearn any routing paths. It's been a great system for me.
 
Ditto everything Work2Play said above. I'm at close to 70 UPB devices also and never have issues. The routing & learning aspect of Z-Wave turned me off from it right from the start. I believe d.dennerline's statement above that there is no technical reason for Leviton's limit of 30 devices is wrong. I've seen it posted numerous times that latency increases as the size of the z-wave network increases and that 30 units was picked as an acceptable number of devices for a properly functioning network.

I put up my X-mas light this weekend and in the boxes were my two UPB plug in modules that drive them. I simply plugged the lights into them and set a flag in my OmniPro for X-mas mode and now my holiday light turn on/off according to schedule.

This whole issue that people say that UPB loses the status message if you press two switches within a second of each other seems way overblown. I've been running UPB since the initial release and I don't experience issues with that. Maybe if I purposefully hit a couple of switches I could get it to do it, but it sure seems to me that the frequency of occurance for people is probably pretty low. Like Work2Play, I also have mine set for a double click to turn off the room, so no one in my house is trying to press multiple buttons at the same time.
 
30 upb devices, almost 20 zwave devices here. No problem with either. I, too, do the xmas devices thing but most of mine are the zwaves. Mostly because i use the outdoor modules but i have some upb appliance mods i named "roamers" that are used when needed.
As for the 'all off', the simplest way is to use the alarm system. When armed 'away', it turns off all lights, turns off all audio and turns off all tv's. When disarmed, it turns on specific lights, turns on audio to a specific channel based on the user code that disarms and turns on the family room tv to a specific channel based on user.

Forgot, arm/disarm also controls temperatures.
 
I have no problem with maybe 60+ UPB. UPB actually is claimed to support 48,000 devices, but 250 would be more realistic. A bigger problem might be the limited number of links, but with 100 devices, it shouldn't be a problem. I use Zigbee also which has no problem with lots of devices. City Center in Las Vegas has over 90,000 Zigbee devices running, but Zigbee switches are still rather limited in types available at this point, although its getting better.
 
As for the 'all off', the simplest way is to use the alarm system. When armed 'away', it turns off all lights, turns off all audio and turns off all tv's. When disarmed, it turns on specific lights, turns on audio to a specific channel based on the user code that disarms and turns on the family room tv to a specific channel based on user.

Forgot, arm/disarm also controls temperatures.
Good point - I meant to mention that.

I put a scene switch in the garage specifically so I could do a "whole house off" button on the way out - but after a couple of days, I set the alarm to take care of it. It's actually a nice catch-all; as I take the kids to school, it turns off the lights that they left on in their rooms.
 
So, I see several replies from people with big UPB systems (looks doable) and small/mixed Z-wave systems. However, has anyone really successfully put together a big Z-Wave system? Are the latency issues mentioned in some past posts resolved using newer hardware/software? I'm starting from scratch so I don't have any legacy issues. One thing that I notice about UPB is the lack of new products over the past couple of years, whereas Z-Wave products seem to be under more active development. I don't want to buy into technology which is already on the wane. Is this a valid assessment or is it just the recession?
 
You're right that not much is happening in the world of UPB - but then again, they have all the basics solved with the exception of a good ceiling fan control. Unfortunately RUC and MiLightStyle were supposed to be the big new controllers, but those kinda flopped.

I think part of the difference is that Z-Wave I believe is an alliance and anyone can join in; whereas UPB is a licensed technology so people pay royalties to Pulseworx - but they are sort of letting it die on the vine.

I don't know if that means that UPB is going away any time soon - I'll be really interested in seeing what happens to HAI's major use of it after their acquisition by Leviton... but for now, I know my system works and I could buy another 20 switches if I needed to. I've never had a switch fail and I have no communication issues, so I'm happy.
 
I still have not gotten any really good feedback from anyone who has a large node home controlled by Z-Wave, and I'm really taken back with the lack of recent UPB activity especially from UPB founder PCS.

Is a modern Insteon system worth considering? I see lots of horror stories from early Insteon adopters but I would like to hear from anyone who has installed a large Insteon system since around 2010. Do all switches work reliaby - every time? Are there any strange quirks or delays that I should be aware of when the system grows?
 
I don't have first-hand experience with Insteon and honestly I'm put off by the single-vendor aspect - especially since they're not someone I choose to have a professional account with... but I suppose to most consumers it doesn't make a bit of difference...

If the discussions on this board are an accurate representation, then yes - there were early quality issues, but those have been gone for years - and the avid supporters of Insteon have had nothing bad to say about it for some time; the biggest thing is that you have to have an ISY to manage anything but a really small installation. That said, the pricing is great and they are always coming out with new things and I haven't been hearing complaints.

Given the thread title, maybe edit if you can and add in the word Insteon to get their attention ;-)
 
Ditto everything Work2Play said above in post 4.

Agreed

I put up my X-mas light this weekend and in the boxes were my two UPB plug in modules that drive them. I simply plugged the lights into them and set a ... X-mas mode and now my holiday light turn on/off according to schedule.
Same here
This whole issue that people say that UPB loses the status message if you press two switches within a second of each other seems way overblown. I've been running UPB since the initial release and I don't experience issues with that. Maybe if I purposefully hit a couple of switches I could get it to do it, but it sure seems to me that the frequency of occurance for people is probably pretty low. Like Work2Play, I also have mine set for a double click to turn off the room, so no one in my house is trying to press multiple buttons at the same time.

Same here. I've actually tested this out quite a bit. The only way I've been able to get this to mess up, is if you hit two switches at the same time. if you learn to just hit the switches one at a time, we find, in our house, the amount of time it takes to move your hand from one switch to another is about how long it takes to complete the action asked for on the first switch. The "slow-double-tap" is one of the most used features in our house. Generally I leave the switches operating as non-residents would expect (do not want to mess with Grandma while she is in the powder room). The hidden features tend to match our lifestyle. The outside lights have a slow double tap, which enables a timer on the lights. Most of the time a fast doubletap just snaps the lights on/off for a particular link (which generally represents a specific room).

I've also been making investments in time/hardware to really use the switches more as toggles for the automation. I'm trying to move towards using motion "activity status" to drive all lights in the house (doors being opened/closed, number of people in the house, etc.).

--Dan
 
I you follow the HomeSeer URL (from my first post), you will see CT post regarding large Z-Wave networks. In addition, MiCasa Vera forums has several topics related to large/complex networks.

I have 20 Z-Wave devices and zero latency problems in a two story house.

With any wireless networking technology, there are so many variables involved in a successful installation; it’s really hard to infer whether a poster has followed all the tricks-of-trade. In addition, Dedicated Z-Wave primary controllers can help improve mesh routing using advanced techniques.
http://wiki.micasave...ZWave_Debugging
http://wiki.micasave...ave_version_452

Perhaps, someone with a Vera running with large Z-Wave network can comment in reliabilty.
 
My plan for both a main house as well as a guest house call for over 100 nodes including switches, dimmers, wall controllers, HVAC, and switched receptacles. I also want room to grow the system later. First and foremost, I want an "all lights off" button near the entrance which I can press as I leave the house. Without this, any "Green" home claims would be moot.

If you really want that many controllable devices you should consider installing a hard wired system. It will be less expensive and a lot more reliable than a wireless system. Also when people have that many devices they tend to push the limits of automation systems and uncover problems that small systems may never experience. I have Centralite Elegance lighting system that controls 100+ real loads and about 80 virtual loads and has 300+ control buttons/switches. No issues for over 5 years, you can create very complex scenes with hundreds of devices. I have my AllOff sceen to turn select 80 devices off, turn some on and a few others on for 5 minutes (outside lights), very useful when you leave the house and it works every time. The scene also controls flags in OP2, so other actions can take place, like arming the system. You can easily change it, set each device to its own fade rate, preset etc. with a few clicks in the software.

If you cannot change your wiring then the next best option IMO will probably be a mix of UPB and some wireless technology. This will give you a reliable network of basic devices and you can supplement it with wireless special devices like fan controls. If you get a HA controller it will be able to bridge separate technologies together and you could optimize and maintain a small wireless network with less headache. From my own experience and from what I have read over the years, the z-wave network is only suitable for small installs with less than 40 devices. And you will still have problems every now and then. Like I had the other day with my 10 device network that I use exclusively for the z-wave locks: a step ladder was leaned against the wall where the beaming dimmer was plugged in; reminded me of the problems with X10 long ago.
 
Back
Top