Water shut off valve

[programmergeek]

Anyone know a cheaper option to the elk shut off valve?

I have used them they are grate but seem overkill a 1" valve? Every time I plumb these in I am reducing to 3/4 or 1/2" Makes me wonder if that big of a valve is needed.

 

[Rupp]

I'm not sure this is a better valve but here's a link to the Z-Wave water cut off valves.
http://store.homeseer.com/store/Sensors-C57.aspx

 

[Sacedog]

Typically, you would not be reducing down directly from your water main supply. In most installations, you are coming off of your supply with the same size pipe as your supply. Then, as lines branch off throughout the house, they are reduced to smaller sizes. This allows the supply the ability to provide enough water pressure for multiple branches that might be on at the same time.

I have a 1 1/4" supply into my house. When I went to purchase a water shut off valve, I was going to get the Elk. The contractor and plumber both said that I should get a 1 1/4" valve, and not the 1" Elk one, because reducing the size at the main supply would cause issues with water pressure if multiple "water requests" were occurring in the house (2 showers on at the same time for instance).

 

[Desert_AIP]

e-bay has a couple options.
Wire to a relay operated by the controller.

110V http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...46232168&ss
12V http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...46232719&ss

I like the NO vavles because they don't use any power until the are closed.

I use the GRI water sensors conneccted to zones located in the kitchen, laundry room, behind the fridge, etc.

 

[fcwilt]

If you use a valve that requires power to keep it closed to prevent a leak - and you have leak - and your power goes out. What is going to happen then?

NOT a good idea.

Use a system designed for this - such as WaterCop.

You will still want a battery backup for such a valve so you can shut the valve (if desired) in event of a extended power outage but the valve will stay shut (or open) without power.

 

[apostolakisl]

Typically, you would not be reducing down directly from your water main supply. In most installations, you are coming off of your supply with the same size pipe as your supply. Then, as lines branch off throughout the house, they are reduced to smaller sizes. This allows the supply the ability to provide enough water pressure for multiple branches that might be on at the same time.

I have a 1 1/4" supply into my house. When I went to purchase a water shut off valve, I was going to get the Elk. The contractor and plumber both said that I should get a 1 1/4" valve, and not the 1" Elk one, because reducing the size at the main supply would cause issues with water pressure if multiple "water requests" were occurring in the house (2 showers on at the same time for instance).

Keep in mind that pressure drop is not just a factor of diameter but length as well. Since the valve is only a couple of inches long it doesn't drop the pressure very much at reasonable flows. I have a 1.25 water line into my house and reduced it to 1 in for the Elk valve and no change was observed in water pressure. The city only provides a 5/8 valve at the street and the plumbers ran the 1.25 since it was a long run to the house. But even with the 5/8 constrictor point, I notice no pressure drop with multiple points of use versus a single point of use. The forumula for pressure drop includes the square of flow rate, so if you started consuming high volumes, at some point the pressure would start dropping quickly, but I have appearantly never hit that much flow.

 

[Desert_AIP]

If you use a valve that requires power to keep it closed to prevent a leak - and you have leak - and your power goes out. What is going to happen then?

NOT a good idea.

Use a system designed for this - such as WaterCop.

You will still want a battery backup for such a valve so you can shut the valve (if desired) in event of a extended power outage but the valve will stay shut (or open) without power.

<I will say that I have this installed on the main line coming in rather than at the point of use.>

It's all probabilities.

With a NC valve there is 100% probability that you will need to burn power every day to have water.
If you look at the draw of those valves it is around 44 watts. 24 hours is 1kWh, or 31.7kWh per month.
Quite a bit! That's ~8% of my monthly bill.
Even with the 12V valve at 25 watts it is substantial. 18kWh/month.
And that doesn't inclue the power consumed converting 120V to 12V.

On the other hand there is a very low probability that you will have a simultaneous water leak and power outage.

Plus if there IS a power outage you will lose all water to the house with a NC valve. Even if there isn't a leak.

A NO valve mirrors the behavior on the water line if there wasn't a valve there at all.
So you always have service, even in a power outage.
But you have the extra capability of being able to automatically secure it if there is a leak detected.

In the off chance you have a leak, THEN you start drawing power to close the valve.
You simulatneously have your system notify you so you can restore service.

A NC valve might be a good idea on a vacation home that only sees occasional use. So the water is secured when you are gone, and no power is drawn.

If you want to hedge against a simultaneous leak and power outage, you can use a 12VDC NO valve with battery backup.
Or use a shuttle valve that requires transient power to move it on or off, but doesn't require it to maintain one state.
But those valves are more expensive. Since the OP asked for a less expensive alternative, these provide that.

 

[apostolakisl]

If you use a valve that requires power to keep it closed to prevent a leak - and you have leak - and your power goes out. What is going to happen then?

NOT a good idea.

Use a system designed for this - such as WaterCop.

You will still want a battery backup for such a valve so you can shut the valve (if desired) in event of a extended power outage but the valve will stay shut (or open) without power.

<I will say that I have this installed on the main line coming in rather than at the point of use.>

It's all probabilities.

With a NC valve there is 100% probability that you will need to burn power every day to have water.
If you look at the draw of those valves it is around 44 watts. 24 hours is 1kWh, or 31.7kWh per month.
Quite a bit! That's ~8% of my monthly bill.
Even with the 12V valve at 25 watts it is substantial. 18kWh/month.
And that doesn't inclue the power consumed converting 120V to 12V.

On the other hand there is a very low probability that you will have a simultaneous water leak and power outage.

Plus if there IS a power outage you will lose all water to the house with a NC valve. Even if there isn't a leak.

A NO valve mirrors the behavior on the water line if there wasn't a valve there at all.
So you always have service, even in a power outage.
But you have the extra capability of being able to automatically secure it if there is a leak detected.

In the off chance you have a leak, THEN you start drawing power to close the valve.
You simulatneously have your system notify you so you can restore service.

A NC valve might be a good idea on a vacation home that only sees occasional use. So the water is secured when you are gone, and no power is drawn.

If you want to hedge against a simultaneous leak and power outage, you can use a 12VDC NO valve with battery backup.
Or use a shuttle valve that requires transient power to move it on or off, but doesn't require it to maintain one state.
But those valves are more expensive. Since the OP asked for a less expensive alternative, these provide that.

I agree, risk is low of simultaneous leak and power outage. Considering that most people have no leak protection under any cirumstance!

One concern I have with a valve that lives almost 100% in one position is that when that rare event comes to close it, it will be stuck open as a result of no use. You might consider having some sort of cycle that opens/closes to keep the cobwebs out.

I have the Elk and it consumes no power in the open or closed position, only for a couple of seconds during the closing and opening.
I like the valve but it is $300.

I have the alarm system turn the water off 45 minutes after arm away, so my risk of leak damage is very low at all times. I also know it is working becuase it gets tested pretty much every day.

 

[Sacedog]

Or use a shuttle valve that requires transient power to move it on or off, but doesn't require it to maintain one state.
But those valves are more expensive.

This is how my valve operates, as well as the Elk valve. When it is open or closed, there is no current draw. It only draws current when the motor is opening or closing the valve. I can't imagine wanting a valve that works any other way.

 

[JonW]

I have a dozen stainless ball valves with 1/2" NPT threading that I've been meaning to put on Ebay but haven't got around to. You can see them here: http://www.electric-valve.com/20-1.html I'd let them go for $90 each. They are new and in box.

They are 12V and use a 3 wire hookup - ground, power close, power open and consume 38 mA only when opening or closing. They have built in limit switches so you can use a SPDT relay or switch to trigger them. They are rated for 10 bar pressure (about 145 psi) and 100C temps. They also have a manual control knob to open close.

I have a bunch of these installed in my home brewery. Shoot me a PM if you are interested in one/some.

 

[programmergeek]

I can buy thoes valves for $30 ea, even found them a bit lower but you need to buy 10.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/21022235...ic_control.html

I have a dozen stainless ball valves with 1/2" NPT threading that I've been meaning to put on Ebay but haven't got around to. You can see them here: http://www.electric-valve.com/20-1.html I'd let them go for $90 each. They are new and in box.

They are 12V and use a 3 wire hookup - ground, power close, power open and consume 38 mA only when opening or closing. They have built in limit switches so you can use a SPDT relay or switch to trigger them. They are rated for 10 bar pressure (about 145 psi) and 100C temps. They also have a manual control knob to open close.

I have a bunch of these installed in my home brewery. Shoot me a PM if you are interested in one/some.

View attachment 3457

 

[electron]

No matter what solution you go with, make sure you go with one which has a PROVEN track record (quickly narrows it down to ELK) and is extremely durable. I did my research, and based on feedback from installers and other people, I went with the ELK model. It's expensive, but at least I can sleep, not having to worry if the valve will fail sometime in the near future.

 

[JonW]

I can buy thoes valves for $30 ea, even found them a bit lower but you need to buy 10.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/21022235...ic_control.html

Really??? I'm sorry my price offended you, but you won't get that valve for $30. Alibaba puts you in contact with the manufacturer. You must then work out the "landed" cost based on which configuration you choose and which shipping method you use (air/sea). Heck, the minimum 10 valves will cost you $15 a piece just in air freight or around $8 for sea (30 day transit). $30 is the starting point for brass valves - not their stainless ones. Even the actuators vary by $20 a piece based on which wiring scheme and voltage you use. Again, sorry if my price offended you, but don't try making me look like I was out to rip you off when you don't really know the pricing of those valves.

 

[86turbodsl]

Actuated ball valves are fairly common industrial devices. I've bought several on Ebay. Shouldn't be that hard to home brew
a simple water sensor and a battery backup controller. I'm guessing careful shopping would net you a setup for $50 or so.

 

[Photon]

Do those of you who use or install the whole-house water shut-valve also have whatever controller you use also shut down electrical power to the water heater? I'm thinking of a scenerio where we are out of the house for a few days and the water heater drain valve decides to leak. The Elk senses the leak and shuts off the water supply. As the water level drops below the heater elemenets, the elements overheat and burn out. It seems I'd want to install a relay box at the water heater feed to prevent that damage.