mdesmarais
Active Member
Ok, I found 1.25" unions here- not bad. Says out of stock, but ships in a week or two.
Please put me down for a 1.25"!
Thanks
Markd
Please put me down for a 1.25"!
Thanks
Markd
Water Shutoff Valve
- Thread starter mikei-ma
- Start date
mdesmarais
Active Member
Can you ask which stainless steel alloy they are using? Some of them are appropriate for direct connection to copper- would be nice to know!
I can't answer your question about the stainless steel other than it being "food grade" but I did some research last night about the need for dieletric unions. Here are some general perceptions based on my research realizing that your research may uncover slightly different perceptions.
* Dielectric unions are sometimes problematic, causing "more trouble than they're worth" in terms of not leaking.
* Stainless steel is more similar (less reactive?) to copper than other steels such as galvanized.
* Hot water seems to be a bigger issue for corrosive reactions than cold water.
* Brass might be a good alternative for directly connecting stainless steel and copper.
For these reasons, for my main water supply line, I've decided to forego the dielectric union and just go with a MIP to sweat fitting made of brass or copper. Then I will just monitor the connection periodically for corrosion. For me one of the main reasons I want to put in an electronic valve is to turn off the water if there is a leak anywhere in the house. Well, it sure would be ironic if the dielectric union I used on my "flood safety" valve becomes the source of a leak and causes my basement to flood. I'd rather replace corroded valves every 5 years than deal with the leak potential of a dielectric union. That is my opinion as a professional plumber may come on here and say a dielectric union is completely safe if installed correctly but some of my research came from plumber forums where some stated they only use them when they have to, mainly for hot water heaters.
David
* Dielectric unions are sometimes problematic, causing "more trouble than they're worth" in terms of not leaking.
* Stainless steel is more similar (less reactive?) to copper than other steels such as galvanized.
* Hot water seems to be a bigger issue for corrosive reactions than cold water.
* Brass might be a good alternative for directly connecting stainless steel and copper.
For these reasons, for my main water supply line, I've decided to forego the dielectric union and just go with a MIP to sweat fitting made of brass or copper. Then I will just monitor the connection periodically for corrosion. For me one of the main reasons I want to put in an electronic valve is to turn off the water if there is a leak anywhere in the house. Well, it sure would be ironic if the dielectric union I used on my "flood safety" valve becomes the source of a leak and causes my basement to flood. I'd rather replace corroded valves every 5 years than deal with the leak potential of a dielectric union. That is my opinion as a professional plumber may come on here and say a dielectric union is completely safe if installed correctly but some of my research came from plumber forums where some stated they only use them when they have to, mainly for hot water heaters.
David
mdesmarais
Active Member
Didn't run into any references to your first point, but anything extra in a pipe run is an additional point of failure!
2 and 3 - Sure, which is why I'm asking about the alloy (which the manufacturer can hopefully answer). See this table for the explanation.
This link is the one I am most concerned about.
Note especially the last couple of lines.
<edit> Ok, I went back to the beginning of this discussion- in Dan's initial message, it looks like the stainless is 304, which is an 18% Chromium, which is within 0.15v, so it should be fine, even in the harsh environment of constantly flowing water. I'll be going direct copper to stainless as well, then!
2 and 3 - Sure, which is why I'm asking about the alloy (which the manufacturer can hopefully answer). See this table for the explanation.
This link is the one I am most concerned about.
Note especially the last couple of lines.
<edit> Ok, I went back to the beginning of this discussion- in Dan's initial message, it looks like the stainless is 304, which is an 18% Chromium, which is within 0.15v, so it should be fine, even in the harsh environment of constantly flowing water. I'll be going direct copper to stainless as well, then!
Here are the main discussion forums where I found mostly negative comments about dielectric unions. I actually didn't find many people that liked the dielectric unions but the Ridgid Forum does have a link to a picture (last post, first page) that shows the type of corrosion that could occur. Then again, I'm sure if I was looking differently I might have found more positive information related to dielectric unions. To me, I agree that the union is an additional point of failure that adds too much risk as compared to the limited chance of corrosion(based on my limited research).
https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t22120/
http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,431839
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/396693-dielectric-union-required.html
http://www.thetankatwaterheaterrescue.com/forums/forum3/2719.html
David
https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t22120/
http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,431839
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/boilers-home-heating-steam-hot-water-systems/396693-dielectric-union-required.html
http://www.thetankatwaterheaterrescue.com/forums/forum3/2719.html
David
drozwood90
Senior Member
Wow, thanks all for chipping in and contributing. I have CPVC, so the discussion on Dielectric did not really affect me, but thank you for researching and adding into the thread for everyone's benefit! Am I to take away, IF you have copper, you need not worry due to the valves being 304 stainless?
Any ideas on power supplies? From the data sheets, it looks like about 3W of power is needed. So, at 12V, 1/4A. Personally, at that low amount, I'm probably going to just use something I have laying around the house. Pete, you can certainly get away with using the smaller gauge wire with this.
I hate linking off the forum, since if I ever move the files, someone will lose out later...but, the PDFS were too big so...for now:
Data sheet:
goo.gl/0T7Sg
Motor Data Sheet
goo.gl/cWtJZ
Can everyone take a look here and ensure I scraped the correct size and quantity of valve from the thread pages??
New list 2012OCT04:
drozwood90 - 2x3/4"
pete_c - 1x1"
politics123 - 1x1.25" ; 1x1/2"
dgage - 2x3/4"
gatorhwk - 1x1.25"
Kevin L - 1x1.25"
funat120mph (Adam) - 2x3/4"
mdesmarais - 1x1.25"
-------------------------
Total"
6x3/4"
1x1/2"
1x1"
4x1.25"
Pete, do you need to go to 1.25" as well, to get the 1" ball valve?? Also, you are all a bad influence on me, I now bumped my order up to 2 valves so I have a backup...which means I'll end up finding another place to USE that valve and not have a backup!
Any ideas on power supplies? From the data sheets, it looks like about 3W of power is needed. So, at 12V, 1/4A. Personally, at that low amount, I'm probably going to just use something I have laying around the house. Pete, you can certainly get away with using the smaller gauge wire with this.
I hate linking off the forum, since if I ever move the files, someone will lose out later...but, the PDFS were too big so...for now:
Data sheet:
goo.gl/0T7Sg
Motor Data Sheet
goo.gl/cWtJZ
Can everyone take a look here and ensure I scraped the correct size and quantity of valve from the thread pages??
New list 2012OCT04:
drozwood90 - 2x3/4"
pete_c - 1x1"
politics123 - 1x1.25" ; 1x1/2"
dgage - 2x3/4"
gatorhwk - 1x1.25"
Kevin L - 1x1.25"
funat120mph (Adam) - 2x3/4"
mdesmarais - 1x1.25"
-------------------------
Total"
6x3/4"
1x1/2"
1x1"
4x1.25"
Pete, do you need to go to 1.25" as well, to get the 1" ball valve?? Also, you are all a bad influence on me, I now bumped my order up to 2 valves so I have a backup...which means I'll end up finding another place to USE that valve and not have a backup!
mdesmarais
Active Member
I'm not a plumber, but it certainly seems like 304 to copper is ok, I'll use brass fittings to step up and down. You've got me down correctly- 1x1.25.
Thanks!
Markd
Thanks!
Markd
politics123
Active Member
Hmm... Why's everyone thinking about a backup? Is it because you're concerned about leaks? Or just that the motor burns out while the vavle is in the "wrong" position whichrequires an on-site, immediate swap replacement?
My assumptions are:
- for the vavle i'm installing on the main water line, that if the motor breaks in the closed position, the worst case I would still find a way to open the valve and have running water. If it breaks in the open position, i'd lose flood protection until i got around to replacing
- for the vavle i'm using to manage the solar hot water heater, if it breks in the open position, then i lose some efficiency, and if it breaks while shut, that i won't be able to generate solar hot water.
Should i be ordering backups also?
My assumptions are:
- for the vavle i'm installing on the main water line, that if the motor breaks in the closed position, the worst case I would still find a way to open the valve and have running water. If it breaks in the open position, i'd lose flood protection until i got around to replacing
- for the vavle i'm using to manage the solar hot water heater, if it breks in the open position, then i lose some efficiency, and if it breaks while shut, that i won't be able to generate solar hot water.
Should i be ordering backups also?
I'm installing mine outside. In Florida, most homes have a slab, so it's very difficult to install indoors. Since these units are so cheap, I'm ordering two and keeping one as a backup.
Kevin
mdesmarais
Active Member
These have a manual override, according to the spec.
drozwood90
Senior Member
My backup, is just so I would not have to buy another later on...more WAF approved to say it is a backup, than a second one that I'm not sure what I am going to do with it yet.
Later today, I'll correct the count/size listing. My intention was to ship these to everyone using the USPS flat rate boxes. I did not really look into it much, as I did not know what size boxes, since we have been oscillating on the sizes and QTY of valves. I would of course accommodate people if they wanted something else (UPS, FedEx, DHL).
My zip is 14514 if you want to estimate shipping. I generally estimate UPS by taking whatever they tell me, then add 20% and if it is not included, add local tax on top. Generally doing that and rounding to the nearest dollar gets me pretty close. If we can use the flat rate boxes, that makes it easy. It is the flat rate box of the size you need, + 8% sales tax (for where I live). That should get you close to the costing.
Once we are really final final (which seems like in the next few days we will be), and I can get the quote back from the MTFR for the last time, I'll see what payment options there are to them, then figure out all the fees, etc., include your personalized shipping methods and get pricing out to everyone.
As a side, I hope you have been able to estimate the pricing based on previous posts. I would hate to jerk the company around more than I have to. I am trying to keep the amount of quotes to a minimum, however understand that we need to understand the pricing of the various valves as we have discussed them.
--Dan
Later today, I'll correct the count/size listing. My intention was to ship these to everyone using the USPS flat rate boxes. I did not really look into it much, as I did not know what size boxes, since we have been oscillating on the sizes and QTY of valves. I would of course accommodate people if they wanted something else (UPS, FedEx, DHL).
My zip is 14514 if you want to estimate shipping. I generally estimate UPS by taking whatever they tell me, then add 20% and if it is not included, add local tax on top. Generally doing that and rounding to the nearest dollar gets me pretty close. If we can use the flat rate boxes, that makes it easy. It is the flat rate box of the size you need, + 8% sales tax (for where I live). That should get you close to the costing.
Once we are really final final (which seems like in the next few days we will be), and I can get the quote back from the MTFR for the last time, I'll see what payment options there are to them, then figure out all the fees, etc., include your personalized shipping methods and get pricing out to everyone.
As a side, I hope you have been able to estimate the pricing based on previous posts. I would hate to jerk the company around more than I have to. I am trying to keep the amount of quotes to a minimum, however understand that we need to understand the pricing of the various valves as we have discussed them.
--Dan
I'm not looking to throw a wrench into the works, but I reviewed the data sheet you posted, Dan. It appears the 1" and 1.25" reduced bore valves have the same internal diameter of the 3/4" full bore valve, 20mm. Plus, the 1.25" valve body is brass, not stainless. For those that need the 1" diameter for flow, the 1.25" reduced-bore won't cut it. Dropping from 1" to 3/4" diameter is a significant drop in flow.
Am I interpreting the datasheet correctly? If so, the valves aren't a bargain, and I'll likely withdraw from the purchase and just buy a full bore valve.
Thanks,
Kevin
Am I interpreting the datasheet correctly? If so, the valves aren't a bargain, and I'll likely withdraw from the purchase and just buy a full bore valve.
Thanks,
Kevin
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