What is the point of Elk or other controllers?
- Thread starter adt2
- Start date
After reading the article in your signature about the Smart Automation switches, I'm more confused than ever. Hopefully the starter kit and programmer I ordered will clear things up a bit.
One potentially huge problem I see, if I'm reading your article correctly, is the "can't turn on multiple switches at the same time" phenomenon. That's going to confuse the hell out of everyone in my family. Has that issue been resolved in the 5 or 6 years since you wrote the article?
And one other question (and the answer might be the answer to the question posed in this thread's title) - how do you do these:
EDIT: I've been reading up on the Elk M1 box, and it looks promising. I am unable to download the Installation Guide from their website, though - assuming they want me to register as an installer? Do I have to purchase and have this installed by a dealer? Looks like I can order it online, and I'm really more of a DIY guy. Plus I may just want to install the empty box and add to it over time, which a lot of dealers aren't going to go for.
One potentially huge problem I see, if I'm reading your article correctly, is the "can't turn on multiple switches at the same time" phenomenon. That's going to confuse the hell out of everyone in my family. Has that issue been resolved in the 5 or 6 years since you wrote the article?
And one other question (and the answer might be the answer to the question posed in this thread's title) - how do you do these:
- ...if someone goes in/out the door or rings the doorbell at a later time, the lights come on again...
- ...the tree is off if we're not home, otherwise it's on if we're downstairs. Same with the bannister lights...
EDIT: I've been reading up on the Elk M1 box, and it looks promising. I am unable to download the Installation Guide from their website, though - assuming they want me to register as an installer? Do I have to purchase and have this installed by a dealer? Looks like I can order it online, and I'm really more of a DIY guy. Plus I may just want to install the empty box and add to it over time, which a lot of dealers aren't going to go for.
Desert_AIP
Senior Member
The multiple switches thing is due to transmitting links.
If you press two switches simultaneously, one of the links is going to be ignored.
There's no real way to have collision control without a separate controller running traffic control.
Each UPB switch is independent. It monitors the line and reacts to links it is programmed to react to and transmits links when a button is pressed.
The Omni DOES have a UPB queue when it is transmitting a series of links.
But this is easily overcome by programming links properly.
If you use several fixtures together, you just make a link that turns them all on together, eliminating the need to press multiple switches, which is one of the reasons to have automated/smart lighting.
This is what I was getting at describing my Master Bath. The switch for the shower light also turns on the fan, etc.
It's not really an issue in my experience. I have 70 UPB switches in my home/property and it hasn't been an issue.
The Elk/Omni panels have internal astronomical clocks.
They know the time of day, date, day of the week and sunrise/sunset times based on latitude of the home.
Those elements can be used to set parameters for behaviors.
For instance, my laundry lights don't come on via the occupancy sensor after 10PM until 5AM, so the cats don't trip it in the middle of the night wasting electricity.
They still come on if I open the entry door from the garage.
My Christmas lights come on at dusk and go off at 1AM only between 25 November and 15 January.
When you combine the clock/calendar functions with occupancy statuses (alarm armed/off, Day, Night, Away, Vacation conditions) and zone (doors, windows, PIR sensors,etc.) opening and closing, it's very powerful and flexible.
If you press two switches simultaneously, one of the links is going to be ignored.
There's no real way to have collision control without a separate controller running traffic control.
Each UPB switch is independent. It monitors the line and reacts to links it is programmed to react to and transmits links when a button is pressed.
The Omni DOES have a UPB queue when it is transmitting a series of links.
But this is easily overcome by programming links properly.
If you use several fixtures together, you just make a link that turns them all on together, eliminating the need to press multiple switches, which is one of the reasons to have automated/smart lighting.
This is what I was getting at describing my Master Bath. The switch for the shower light also turns on the fan, etc.
It's not really an issue in my experience. I have 70 UPB switches in my home/property and it hasn't been an issue.
The Elk/Omni panels have internal astronomical clocks.
They know the time of day, date, day of the week and sunrise/sunset times based on latitude of the home.
Those elements can be used to set parameters for behaviors.
For instance, my laundry lights don't come on via the occupancy sensor after 10PM until 5AM, so the cats don't trip it in the middle of the night wasting electricity.
They still come on if I open the entry door from the garage.
My Christmas lights come on at dusk and go off at 1AM only between 25 November and 15 January.
When you combine the clock/calendar functions with occupancy statuses (alarm armed/off, Day, Night, Away, Vacation conditions) and zone (doors, windows, PIR sensors,etc.) opening and closing, it's very powerful and flexible.
I'm thinking specifically of light+fan combinations in bedrooms (although we tend to just leave the fans on all day long). Is the problem remedied if I hard-wire a load (not sure of the correct term here) to a switch, instead of making a link? In other words, if I had a dual rocker switch on one side of a two-gang box, with the light wired to one rocker and fan to the other, and then one of the 4- or 8-button switches on the other side of the two-gang box with scenes (i.e. all on, all off, etc.), would that work without "missing" or "skipping" things?
Desert_AIP
Senior Member
I recommend doing some research, read the docs for the switches and play with the switches you receive to see what options are available.
There are several threads here talking about UPB.
Using Simply Automated switches, the US2-40 operates using links only, but has the flexibilty of multiple faceplates, the US11-40 can directly control a load from the rocker switch in addition to responding to links, but the faceplate options are only a single rocker (or IIRC a double rocker).
In your example, I assume there are times when you want to control the light only and other times when you want to control the fan only and still other times when you want to control both simultaneously.
If you had a dual gang box, a switch for the light and a switch for the fan both with single rockers.
If you used US11-40 switches and enabled local control, if you depressed both rockers at the same time they would both operate.
They would also operate indepently.
If you used US2-40s, both with single rockers, and depressed both simultaneously, one of the loads would not activate. (There is a way to enable local control on a US2-40, but it still uses links and there is still a collision possibility, so I usually don't use the option).
You could do something with a US11-40 where a single tap of the rocker controls the local load and a double tap transmits a link.
So you could have the fan wired to a US2-40, with a multi-button faceplate to use as a link transmitter, and have it respond to the link from the US11-40 or it's own links.
If you used two US2-40s, you would have to configure the links to produce the resulting behavior you wanted, or just press one rocker after the other rather than both simultaneously.
A dual rocker on a single US2-40 would be a problem if you tried to press both rockers simultaneously, one of the links would be lost.
If you are talking about a US22-40 dual load control switch, you still have the simultaneous press problem, each channel of the 22-40 needs to receive a link to operate, if those are transmitted simultaneously, one will be lost.
As I said, it's very flexible and the simultaneous switch press isn't really an issue, there are many ways to skin that cat.
I think you may be making to big of an issue out of it.
There are several threads here talking about UPB.
Using Simply Automated switches, the US2-40 operates using links only, but has the flexibilty of multiple faceplates, the US11-40 can directly control a load from the rocker switch in addition to responding to links, but the faceplate options are only a single rocker (or IIRC a double rocker).
In your example, I assume there are times when you want to control the light only and other times when you want to control the fan only and still other times when you want to control both simultaneously.
If you had a dual gang box, a switch for the light and a switch for the fan both with single rockers.
If you used US11-40 switches and enabled local control, if you depressed both rockers at the same time they would both operate.
They would also operate indepently.
If you used US2-40s, both with single rockers, and depressed both simultaneously, one of the loads would not activate. (There is a way to enable local control on a US2-40, but it still uses links and there is still a collision possibility, so I usually don't use the option).
You could do something with a US11-40 where a single tap of the rocker controls the local load and a double tap transmits a link.
So you could have the fan wired to a US2-40, with a multi-button faceplate to use as a link transmitter, and have it respond to the link from the US11-40 or it's own links.
If you used two US2-40s, you would have to configure the links to produce the resulting behavior you wanted, or just press one rocker after the other rather than both simultaneously.
A dual rocker on a single US2-40 would be a problem if you tried to press both rockers simultaneously, one of the links would be lost.
If you are talking about a US22-40 dual load control switch, you still have the simultaneous press problem, each channel of the 22-40 needs to receive a link to operate, if those are transmitted simultaneously, one will be lost.
As I said, it's very flexible and the simultaneous switch press isn't really an issue, there are many ways to skin that cat.
I think you may be making to big of an issue out of it.
adt2 said:
I think this issue gets overblown. If you have two switches next to each other that turn on two different loads (like your light+fan combo), both of those will turn on exactly as you'd expect them when your press the switches at the same time. The only issue is if each switch was also setup to transmit different links to set scenes with out lights/devices, the two different links may not make it. I have to say though that on my switches, I never have this occur.
If you don't want to register on the ELK web site to gain access to the M1 manual, you can download a copy from the web sites of some dealers who sell them, such as Smarthome.com
http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/12838install.pdf
http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/12838install.pdf
tmbrown97
Senior Member
JonW - That's a bug in the forum software - if someone else posts while you're posting, it gets confused - makes people click a second time - then it goes through, posting a second time. Secondly, as Desert_AIP said - with 1140's, you won't have that issue - but with the 240's they don't work without transmitting and receiving their own link so the collision *will* cause a problem.
Desert_AIP knows UPB very well, including the HLC adaptation for Omni, although that's not relevant here... it looked like he answered the questions pretty well...
For adt2 - Elk works well with DIY'ers - within reason. They can't give you the same personal support they'd invest in a dealer who installs dozens of systems... that said, they have been great to DIYers and they also participate here on CocoonTech.com, including their chief engineer. They did outsource their website development (smart honestly) and when that happened, some good historical information disappeared, and the manual registration requirement appeared even for downloading basic docs, but as mentioned above, a few resellers link to it and some CT'ers will help if needed. Once you buy a system and register with your serial number, you'll get a login that gets you all the documentation, software, firmware, etc.
And your direct questions - those two bullet points you asked about are what you get when your security and automation are tied together. If you're really ingrained in using and Elk and really get the Input/Output aspects, it finds its way into more areas - like instead of a traditional doorbell, the button then goes to an input on the elk - from there, I play a custom sound throughout the house via the Elk speakers; others have it feed an output that hits a trigger on their IP Cameras which triggers the camera to take a snapshot of the person outside the door and sends a text message and picture to their cell phones. An extra rule on mine checks to see if its after a certain time and kicks the light on too.
Desert_AIP knows UPB very well, including the HLC adaptation for Omni, although that's not relevant here... it looked like he answered the questions pretty well...
For adt2 - Elk works well with DIY'ers - within reason. They can't give you the same personal support they'd invest in a dealer who installs dozens of systems... that said, they have been great to DIYers and they also participate here on CocoonTech.com, including their chief engineer. They did outsource their website development (smart honestly) and when that happened, some good historical information disappeared, and the manual registration requirement appeared even for downloading basic docs, but as mentioned above, a few resellers link to it and some CT'ers will help if needed. Once you buy a system and register with your serial number, you'll get a login that gets you all the documentation, software, firmware, etc.
And your direct questions - those two bullet points you asked about are what you get when your security and automation are tied together. If you're really ingrained in using and Elk and really get the Input/Output aspects, it finds its way into more areas - like instead of a traditional doorbell, the button then goes to an input on the elk - from there, I play a custom sound throughout the house via the Elk speakers; others have it feed an output that hits a trigger on their IP Cameras which triggers the camera to take a snapshot of the person outside the door and sends a text message and picture to their cell phones. An extra rule on mine checks to see if its after a certain time and kicks the light on too.
Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm sold on the usefulness of the security/automation/lighting marriage (and, more importantly, the inability to easily get that marriage without an intermediary controller), but frankly, reading the installation manual linked above wasn't all that much help. It's probably very helpful during an installation (duh), but not all that helpful in the planning stage. With that in mind, on to my next set of questions...
[*]The first non-security integration project I'll tackle will be lighting control, probably with the Simply Automated UPB switches. How do I interface the switches with the controller? In other words, if I wanted to duplicate your "when somebody rings the doorbell, notify the Elk, play a sound, trigger the camera, send a text, kick on the light" setup, what hardware does that require? (I realize the second question is a lot more involved than the first, but I figure you might as well explain it all to me now so I'll know what I'm getting into here.)
[*]Two other security-related issues I'll probably tackle early on are access control at the driveway gate, and garage door status and operation. I'm going to try to extend the Wifi coverage to the end of the driveway, and it would be nice to be able to do something like hit a button on an Elk keyfob to open the driveway gate, open the correct garage door (mine or my wife's depending on who pushed the button), turn on the garage and breezeway lights, disarm the security system, and turn on the mudroom and kitchen lights. The driveway gate should close automatically, and if somebody forgets to close the garage door, it should close after some period of inactivity. What kind of hardware is going to be required for this? Keyfob, wireless transceiver, anything else? Can the transceiver be mounted remotely (i.e. at the end of the driveway somewhere), or does it have to be co-located with the controller? Is there a better way to accomplish this?
[*]Next project will likely be some manner of HVAC integration. What kind of thermostats am I going to have to use? What about controller-side hardware?
Thanks again for taking the time to educate me, here.
EDIT: Totally forgot about smoke/CO2 detectors. What hardware will they require?
- The Elk M1 Gold Starter Kit doesn't seem to include anything...useful. It includes things that are necessary, but not things that allow me to actually use it for anything clever out of the box. Is that a fair assessment?
- I'd like to be able to connect the Elk controller to my home network for remote programming; is that what the Ethernet Port Interface is for?
- I'm going to need a handful of keypads - probably a fancy one at the main point of entry/exit, and then a few arming stations at the various other doors. How do these connect? Ethernet wire? If so, am I correct in assuming I'll need one or more Data Bus Hubs?
- It looks like all of Elk's security system hardware is wireless (door & window contacts, motion sensors, etc.).
If using Elk's hardware, am I correct in assuming I'll need one or more Wireless Transceivers (in addition to the door & window sensors, motion sensors, etc.)? - Can I use sensor hardware from another vendor? I'm thinking specifically of Scout here (www.scoutalarm.com), which is Zigbee-based. I know nothing about Zigbee other than how to spell it.
- If I can use hardware from another vendor, how do I get it to interface with the controller?
[*]The first non-security integration project I'll tackle will be lighting control, probably with the Simply Automated UPB switches. How do I interface the switches with the controller? In other words, if I wanted to duplicate your "when somebody rings the doorbell, notify the Elk, play a sound, trigger the camera, send a text, kick on the light" setup, what hardware does that require? (I realize the second question is a lot more involved than the first, but I figure you might as well explain it all to me now so I'll know what I'm getting into here.)
[*]Two other security-related issues I'll probably tackle early on are access control at the driveway gate, and garage door status and operation. I'm going to try to extend the Wifi coverage to the end of the driveway, and it would be nice to be able to do something like hit a button on an Elk keyfob to open the driveway gate, open the correct garage door (mine or my wife's depending on who pushed the button), turn on the garage and breezeway lights, disarm the security system, and turn on the mudroom and kitchen lights. The driveway gate should close automatically, and if somebody forgets to close the garage door, it should close after some period of inactivity. What kind of hardware is going to be required for this? Keyfob, wireless transceiver, anything else? Can the transceiver be mounted remotely (i.e. at the end of the driveway somewhere), or does it have to be co-located with the controller? Is there a better way to accomplish this?
[*]Next project will likely be some manner of HVAC integration. What kind of thermostats am I going to have to use? What about controller-side hardware?
Thanks again for taking the time to educate me, here.
EDIT: Totally forgot about smoke/CO2 detectors. What hardware will they require?
Desert_AIP
Senior Member
adt2 said:
Uh oh!
NOW you've done it... :nutz:
JK, that is a very drawn out topic with many threads here discussing it; AC/DC/battery backup power, panel connected/not connected, local code requirements, etc., etc.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
- The Elk M1 Gold Starter Kit doesn't seem to include anything...useful. It includes things that are necessary, but not things that allow me to actually use it for anything clever out of the box. Is that a fair assessment?
Kinda - it is a starting point but honestly I think a 28" enclosure is better; but for the price difference, start with a kit plus accessories - add on as you feel like it. I used the included 14" can in my garage for a sub-panel to interface with sprinklers, garage door control, etc. - I'd like to be able to connect the Elk controller to my home network for remote programming; is that what the Ethernet Port Interface is for?
Yeah the XEP (Ethernet Module) is what puts the M1 on your IP network - this lets you program it and talk to it via smartphone apps. - I'm going to need a handful of keypads - probably a fancy one at the main point of entry/exit, and then a few arming stations at the various other doors. How do these connect? Ethernet wire? If so, am I correct in assuming I'll need one or more Data Bus Hubs?
The Data Bus hub isn't required but it does simplify wiring and add a bit of modularity to it. FWIW some of us feel the fancier touchscreens actually lose some of the usefulness of a regular old KP2 - like having an always on screen that's not overly bright, has some F-keys right there visible and ready to go, etc - plus it fits an SP12 speaker behind it which is nice if you have a few keypads around - then the "talking" and alarm sounds come from the points of interface for the alarm - to me this feels more natural. - It looks like all of Elk's security system hardware is wireless (door & window contacts, motion sensors, etc.).
If using Elk's hardware, am I correct in assuming I'll need one or more Wireless Transceivers (in addition to the door & window sensors, motion sensors, etc.)? - Can I use sensor hardware from another vendor? I'm thinking specifically of Scout here (www.scoutalarm.com), which is Zigbee-based. I know nothing about Zigbee other than how to spell it.
- If I can use hardware from another vendor, how do I get it to interface with the controller?
Elk has a pretty new line of 2-way wireless; but they also have wireless receivers for either GE or Honeywell receivers which have been out a lot longer with a broad range of options. You can also use any compatible wired sensor if you want to do wires. For windows, I like the Ion series which come either GE or Honeywell compatible. You can run more than one style wireless receiver too if you really wanted. GE sensors are more accessible; Honeywell seems to have a little better range of options. Wired contacts and motion sensors and all that are fairly generic - they wire to Inputs on the board - there' 16 built in, then you add on expanders as needed with 16 more inputs per expander.
I'm out of time - will finish the rest later.
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