What is wrong with ELK Products inc.?

[Dean Roddey]

For a company like us, it's kind of got to be Windows. No one is going to run a serious automation system an iPod. There has to be a back end with serious power and resources for that. No one is going to pay for an expensive Apple machine for that, and it has to be pretty much a real PC, so real PCs can't be going away that much. So the back end has to be Windows pretty much. And of course there are probably a hundred experienced Windows developers for every Apple one.

And you can't ignore Android which is vastly outselling Apple on the non-PC side. So, right off the bat you have three platforms, and no real solution to do serious cross platform development that is both high performance and highly integrated into the individual platforms. If you did pick a second platform to support for the hand helds, Android would probably be the better bet on cost and wide availability.

Apple is, IMO, in a precarious situation. They depend almost completely one one product that is not even the dominant one in that category, and they depend on very high profits. They have hugely overblown value, and if things start going awry (not unlikely given their past and what happens when the one dominant figure who can run roughshod over the whole company goes away and Alexander's generals start fighting for the parts of the empire), it could go bad quickly. They are a company prone to extreme hubris, and a highly insular way of doing things that isn't about fitting into the rest of the world (hence why it's kind of interesting when people complain that other people don't want to play with them.)

 

[wojeda]

I am sorry Dean, I cannot agree with any of the points you make here. And not to turn this onto a personal attack, as I can appreciate your input, but it is readily apparent you don't know anything about Apple. So I will chuck this one to personal opinions which you are totally entitled to.

As for Digger and KenN, thanks for chiming in and making my point. It has very little to do with ELK having or not the economical muscle to pull this off and perhaps more to do with the market. I am not sure however, singling a sector such as professionals or businesses is correct though. There are thousands of home owners that are more likely to run things other than PCs.

So, I think it would be beneficial to create a study on what really is the customer base ELK, and for that matter any others in the HA industry, to determine the correct proportion. I'd be very surprised if there isn't already one on how many; say ELK M1s that have made it into a home, versus say a business. From the marketing stand point alone, knowing that would be invaluable. But, if they were to add to that, OK now, how many of these are even being interfaced by a computer? And out of those, how many prefer Windoze? Notice how I say, "Prefer" as to stress a choice.
This to me would be a no-brainer marketing inquiry. Maybe it has already been done. Hence the results we see today as far as choices. If it has, the results may have not been published, at least on a readily accessible form.

Looking at it from another perspective, let say for argument sake, it is not worth for any of these HA entities to get into alternate OS software development. I'd think some young entrepreneurial type, would stand to make a pretty good coin selling developing and marketing such applications. I know I'd have no problem what so ever paying top dollar for a well written native app. Not looking for a hand out here. As long as they get the investment back anything else would be icing on the cake. But's that's just me. A lot out there are on the gee-me for free band wagon, so that has to weighted as well.

 

[Automate]

Note to Nene: Most people don't take comments that include words like Windoze or iSheep seriously.

 

[sic0048]

This is another instance where an Apple fanatic thinks that Apple products rule the world when it fact they are still in a huge minority of products used. The only arena where Apple holds a majority of market share is the tablet market. They don't come close to touching Android in the phone market (where the gap is growing in Android's favor), or Windows machines in the PC market (where the gap is slowly narrowing in Apple's favor). That's generally usage too - add to the equation that we are talking about home automation, and the number of Apple only users drops even further. This means there is simply not enough demand for an Apple software product for Elk to put forth the time and expense of creating one. It is that simple. It's all about profitability and creating an Apple software is simply not going to be profitable for Elk. Perhaps one day it will be and we will see a product put forth (but I wouldn't hold my breath).

 

[Kevin L]

Note to Nene: Most people don't take comments that include words like Windoze or iSheep seriously.

+1

 

[pete_c]

I've watched OS evolution in the last thirty years or so.

I agree with the following:

I don't think anyone in the industry cares very much. The perception out there in the working world is ... PCs for work, Macs for play.

 

[tmbrown97]

Even though I'm typing this from my Mac, I have to agree with the statement that Windows is for work Mac is for play. I spend my time about 50/50 between the two and each is better suited for certain things.

Getting to the point - I don't think there's an argument anyone could make to justify why Elk or anyone for that matter should worry about making the installer/programming tools work on Mac - technicians will never carry around $1500 laptops - they'll usually have a 7-year old clunker that doesn't do much *but* run the programming tools.

The gap is that something like ElkRMS or M1ToGo needs to be made for OS X - or at least that the market exists. That said, even though I'm at my Mac a large portion of the time when I might like to control lights or HVAC, I likely wouldn't pay much for an app. My phone is always within reach and it handles the Elk just fine. At my desk I use ElkRMS once in a while to turn on the lights or the HVAC but it's pretty minimal.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Well, it's clearly not an opinion that Android is vastly outselling iOS. This is definitely true, by a wide margin. I'm pretty sure that there are vastly more Windows developers than iOS developers. The majority of developers who have developed for Apple in the past probably did so on their desktop OS, which is basically Unix, not iOS.

I'm certainly no Apple insider, but I've read quite a bit about them. They are clearly a company prone to hubris, as has been proven many times in the past. They are running basically the same sort of strategy that killed them the first time around, which is a premium product, cut off from the outside world, driving a large R&D budget that is required to keep doing so much work themselves (as opposed to the Wintel world where the cost is spread much further out.) I saw the other day that they were alledgedly (again) considering creating their own CPU, whic is one of the huge debacles that contributed to their first downfall. That's the kind of hubris that they seem to always run into. They start thinking that they can do no wrong, and that if they do everything and have a completely closed world that they will win.

But it leaves them in a very dangerous situation. In the end price does matter, and they are no longer the alternative. So much of their appeal is fashion based, but they are quickly heading towards the point where they are not going to to be hip. They are heading towards soccer mom product status, IMO. If some other company comes along that does a good job on a simlar product for a much better price, given how much they depend on that one product, they could have a problem. They aren't designed to operate in a competitive market, just as their original product line wasn't. They can't maintain that constant large R&D stream required to drive new premium product development.

And you definitely see the beginnings of fiefdom making and inter-fighting now that Jobs is gone. That was a huge part of their original downfall as well. Jobs, in those days, was a vindictive bully boy pretty much and was run out of the company. And once he was gone, all the generals started fighting for turf, and it didn't do the company any good. I've started to see articles with simlar sorts of stories of late. When it happens in a company making lots of money, it seems to me it's particularly dangerous because it's easier to just keep steaming forward while everyone is making money, and ignore the problems.

 

[Dean Roddey]

According to this CNN article, which was only a couple months ago, on the smart phone front, Android is at 68% and iOS at 17%, so a pretty substantial difference.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/08/technology/smartphone-market-share/index.html

 

[troymt]

Our company recently developed a software product. It is mind blowing how expensive it is to produce a quality product.

To imply that Elk is ignoring a legitimate source of revenue by failing to develop an application for Macs, seems like misplaced disappointment on your part. You may want an app but simple economics are at play here.

 

[tmbrown97]

There must be demographic issues at play that affect the Android vs. iOS statistics - or it could be that android users go through more phones, whereas I still see people using old 3G iPhones - they pass them through the family as they upgrade. Also, on the west coast, our carriers suffered horrible quality issues over the years so AT&T wasn't bad; Verizon was horrendous for a few years (though they're now our best option) - t-mobile is non-existent here, and sprint - well, they're just the schoolyard geek who's trying too hard to fit in and will eventually disappear into oblivion. I think on the East Coast, T-Mobile was much more popular and didn't have the same options.

A couple "alternative" statistics...

• If a company goes to build a mobile app, they *always* start with iOS, then maybe work on android later. The reality is, developing for Android sucks - there are so many hardware and software variations it's a friggin' nightmare to get a consistent user experience.
• According to Flikr, iPhones hold most of the top spots for the most popular camera in use.
• According to Facebook, it's about 20% android users and about 19% iOS users accessing them.

And again I think demographics must be at play, but I can probably name 30 people in my circles who use iOS for every 1 android user. And I know a couple of those android users will be switching to iPhones as soon as they have an available upgrade. I think a lot of people who have landed on Android did so because of carrier limitations or cost. But because my entire circle of friend use iOS communicating in Apple's ideal environment, everything is quite convenient. If people text me, I can respond from my computer or iPad instead of my phone. We do group-texts between a bunch of us daily, and message length isn't a consideration. I can bid sub-contract jobs and use photostream to send pics back and forth. We use FaceTime to let the kids all see each other. When friends are over, if it's too quiet, someone grabs their phone and plays DJ to the Airport Express that's connected to the living room speakers. And I've given up on stealing/ripping music - I buy what I want on iTunes and it's automatically on all my computers/phones/tablets. We really have a cohesive experience between so many computing devices in our home.

That's where the world is headed... I installed Windows 8 today and that was the overwhelming theme - a cohesive experience from every device you touch. You sign in to the web and all your devices share all your settings and actions. The thing is, Apple is the one who started that trend - everyone else is struggling to catch up. I'm not saying they do it perfectly - there's a reason my "workhorse" computer is a triple-screen, 8-core, 16GB RAM Windows 7 (or 8 now) 64-bit computer... but I find I can do more and more from the macbook the more I use it. It's certainly the more "portable" computer.

And I'm not sure I agree with the term "hubris". It's close - but I don't know that Apple's arrogance is always misplaced. Sometimes they really are superior - but not always. Lots of times you wonder WTF it's taking them so long to do what everyone else does... but then they finally do it, and they do it right - and they change the landscape with how they do it, so now everyone else has to play catchup.

I'm no fanboy - I've made my living using MS products and talking smack to anyone who used Mac. I'm an MCSE and an expert in all MS operating systems and server products - I can run circles around most SE's. I stumbled across Mac because some of my VIP's were using iPhones, so I got one - then got a Mac so I could play with development; then I ran a dev team for a tablet-based app (internal so we could use the product of our choice - but iOS won all user preferences). The more I was forced to use Apple products, the more I learned to appreciate the whole ecosystem. I'm about to buy some AppleTV's and complete the experience. That's not to say I won't still run a Windows computer for my "real" work, but Apple has taken a large portion of my home life over.

TBH, I'm not even sure of the point of this... at the end of the day, I'm sure the percentage of Elk users on OSX vs. Windows who need control options are less than 10%. I don't think they'll ever fill the gap, but maybe a 3rd party can. Thanks to the unified app store, it wouldn't take much for someone to release an App there that people can buy for $50. Maybe Jayson can get on that.

 

[Del91574]

I've spent about 25 years working in industrial automation, and trust me, there are far larger companies that offer their software for Windows PCs only. And to be honest, I don't think anyone in the industry cares very much. The perception out there in the working world is ... PCs for work, Macs for play.

So, if a company like Rockwell Automation, who sells 5-6 billion dollars worth of software and Allen-Bradley PLCs per year doesn't produce a single software product for apple OS, why would Elk be bothered?

I can't take the OP seriously with the spelling puns and the tone of the post.However...

Windows may not be a perfect platform for those on the IOS kick, but fact of the matter, like Android (although the OS variations remind me of the old Win 95, 98, ME, 2000 days before XP) you're not going to see a platform as prolific as Windows that is installed on more equipment compared to the Apple hardware. Even the apple fanboys (not intended as a bash) and apple themselves can no longer brag that their hardware doesn't get viruses. There's certain applications that seem to be developed more for the IOS platform, like the graphic arts industry.

I work on embedded Windows platforms and Linux, and while Linux is open source, it's far from user friendly IMHO for anyone that isn't using it daily. The command lines are brutal. I think the largest item Apple has to contend with, as I read in a good technology article, is they're moving towards a model of being a design studio more than a computer company, with software as a service.

 

[tenholde]

Practically, I can think of many things I'd priortize for ELK to work on rather than Apple support. Apple is a closed environment that intentionally discourages experimenters, hobbyist, etc through closed and proprietary products. For most recent example, the iPhone 5 forces their customers to convert from one proprietary interface to another, rather than the mini-USB interface that nearly all other phone manufacturers have converted to.

Philisophically, I support open source and standards-based products. I would vote for banning Apple products in the hobbyist, home automation world.

The only arena that Apple plays in that warrants discussion is in the phone/tablet world (I sure hope no one at ELK would even seriously discuss supporting Apple desktop world). Products that remotely interact with ELK should be via open, defined interfaces that anyone can write an app for using any platform. If there is a viable market for iPhone app, someone will develop it. Seems to me there are android app(s) out there? If ELK were to try and develop something for all phones/tablets, it should be via HTML5 -- not writing multiple apps for each platform.

tenholde

 

[Del91574]

Without getting into everything, part of the beauty of the Elk hardware itself, serial ports and rules engine is being able to interface and integrate with lots of various manufacturers and hardware. You're never going to see that in a closed platform like what was alluded to by the poster above me, and truthfully, I agree whole heartedly with what was said by them.

 

[Dean Roddey]

You can certainly tell by iTunes that Apple doesn't give a poop about the automation world. If they did, they would break it into a background server based engine and a separate front end, so that automation systems could access it in a way that you'd expect for a music repository type of 'device'. As it is now it's painful to have to deal with from an automation system standpoint, and unfortunately a lot of people use iTunes so it's hard to avoid.