What to get?

[tomcat335]

I'm buying a new house and after reading this forum and talking to installers, I'm not sure what to get. I've gotten quotes on HAI (2 different ones) and an ELK (only 1 installer in my area). I'm looking for a system that will be mostly for security (7 windows, 3 doors, 2 motions) but will have 1 or 2 automated lights (for now), a camera for the front porch and a thermostat. Eventually I'll add around 20 lights and a door lock but probably no audio. There is a chance that I might do other HA things but probably not in the near future.
One of the options I was given was a DSC system with a controller (like the MiCasaVerde) but I want to make sure I can access the system (and it's arm status) through the web even though it will be monitored.

Where my confusion really comes in though, is that from all my reading here I see that the ELK and HAI have almost the same capabilities, but the HAI is more expensive. Here is what the installer sent me on this topic:

The HAI is a full automation system it has capabilities that the ELK does not. As discussed with you before the HAI and the Control 4 are both known as the entry level systems. ELK is a wonderful compliment to a much higher form of Home Automation such as Crestron, AMX and Savant…I can send you a line item breakdown of the product and It will be more expensive.

Is that correct? If so, why is the price he is quoting me more than what I got from the HAI installers? I'm trying to get a line by line quote from him to compare, but he is being reluctant about sending it.

Any opinions on what I should do?

Thanks!

 

[electron]

Welcome to CocoonTech!

The ELK is just as powerful as the HAI system. The HAI eco-system does seem to have a few more accessories (such as a SIP based intercom, and energy monitoring support). While ELK starts cheaper, it seems most people agree that in the end, cost is similar, since you might have to invest in a few more add-on modules in order to match the stock HAI capabilities (from what I have read, I might be wrong, I have an ELK myself).

HAI does have their own version of the popular UPB lighting technology, so maybe that's why the installer mentioned this, but ELK supports UPB and many other lighting technologies just fine.

You need to plan ahead here, and see what other features might be important to you in the future.

You can't go wrong either way.

 

[Del91574]

HAI has a slight edge, emphasis on slight over the M1 as far as automation goes out of the box. The M1 is far more robust in security. Unless you go with the flagship HAI panel, you're going to be pigeonholed with no expansion...price for an entry M1 vs. a HAI omni is 1/3, but once you expand to the same level, very close with Elk being slightly cheaper through my distribution network. Elk has HAI beat as far as modularity goes...only add as much as you need, when you need it. HAI, you need an Omni to have all the toys, otherwise the expansion is just not there.

It's irrational to say one is better than the other with larger systems like C4, Crestron, AMX, etc. because when interfacing a panel with these systems, the panel simply needs to spew serial or TCP/IP to the controllers, bidirectionally with the HA controller doing the heavy lifting for the GUI or splitting the HA functions between the controllers, depending on which performs a certain function better or easier.

 

[tmbrown97]

This is discussed all over the forum about which system to go with, and the answer has almost always been that you can't go wrong with either, and at the end of the day, the cost ends up comparable.

A few years ago, HAI wouldn't support DIY at all, so many members here chose Elk. Elk has supported DIY from the start. As far as people/companies go, I get a better feel from Elk as far as dedication to support, but HAI has a better business model - they're bringing so many more products to market so much faster. While I think Elk does things more elegantly, they don't do them quickly - so it seems like they've been lapped a few dozen times by HAI now.

I use an Elk today and I'm completely thrilled with it - but if I moved tomorrow and left this system behind, I'd try HAI at the next house. I know there'd be some compromises, but in the end it'd also be a more cohesive system IMHO.

 

[Del91574]

Here's my take as a pro, HAI vs. Elk.

HAI provides a more "system in a box" sort of install...want intercom, buy the HAI unit. Want to do X and Y, then buy HAI boards 1 & 2. Elk is more of a "want to interface with" sort of panel....buy boards A, B, C to interface with X, Y Z manufacturer's units, drop the firmware and call it a day.

There's exceptions to both, but HAI's business model is more to have someone move into their entire platform for an easy integration, where I believe Elk's model seems to be interfacing with other manufacturer's technology and protocols, drop a firmware (or lately a new serial) to communicate with another manufacturer's product line, rather than forcing your hand to use all "Elk" lighting, wireless, intercom, audio, etc.

Would I love Elk to add some more integrated products...addressable fire alarm device support, multiple 2 wire fire zone module(s) and more, sure, but I think they're a bit slow to the punch at times and quite possibly are dealing with the existing hardware and memory limitations of the M1 as it has gone to market and existed for the last X amount of years.

 

[tomcat335]

Thanks for the advice everyone! My house is about 2000 sq. feet with 3 bedrooms, and my installers are both recommending the OmniPro IIe. Besides there being fewer output (which I'm not sure I'd hit the limit for, although I don't know everything they're used for) and there being less lines of code available, is there really a good reason for me to upgrade to the II? It's a pretty small house, small backyard and I don't think I'd ever hit the light switch limit either.

Is getting a DSC system with a controller a good option? I'd like to be able to use an iPhone app to control the system, but I think I can do that with some of their systems or a controller.

I'm leaning towards the HAI system, but since security is the first priority for me right now, I'm debating whether it's worth the cost over DSC.

 

[picta]

If you just need security system, I would go with DSC. If you are sure you want to add automation, then go with omnipro; you'll get all your current and future needs covered in one package, and will have options for expansion in case you get the contagious automation bug later....

 

[tmbrown97]

Let me just say, you'll never regret getting the bigger system, but it's highly likely someday you'll regret getting a more limited one.

The more you do this, the more you're likely to want to integrate/automate. It may take a couple years, but you'll get there.

 

[video321]

I agree with all that is being said here, which is exactly what led me to go with Elk over HAI as well. The biggest factor was the entry level price point and modular capability of the Elk. I just didn't see myself every wanting to use the integration features, such as A/V distribution, etc. that makes HAI appealing - I was already using a custom setup for distributed A/V and touch screen interfaces. I didn't need to see my cameras on a keypad; my touch screens can do that. As far as using a separate controller, I'm using Vera with my Elk to provide lighting and switched outlet control and it works really well, but I'm glad I have the Elk and not an entry-level security system like DSC or Honeywell to go with it. For a few hundred more than a security only system, I'd recommend at a minimum the Elk.

 

[Del91574]

Given the choice between the Omni listed and the M1G, I'd steer towards the M1G.

The Omni is only expandable up to a point...very easy to hit, even in a small house, where the M1 will allow you to (albeit at a slightly higher entry point) add on the features and expand as you go. Need to add some contacts or outputs, done. Need another serial port, done. I can't really recommend the smaller Omni panels for too many applications, it's just hobbling the control vs. the M1 (although the EZ8 does similar). It's more of a marketing platform, with HAI offering 3 panels, 2 of them extremely limited and then their flagship, with some items not working across their entire platform (the last time I really had to look into it) where at least the M1, barring the serial port issue, supports the entire line on their 2 panels.

 

[pete_c]

Here I started the HA "wall" using an HAI OPII. Then considered an Elk M1G after I had already "built" the wall. In Florida I had created a central point in a closet for all of the wiring and had little space. So today it is maybe 2-3 feet wide and the wall has 3 smaller panels stacked. In the midwest I am pushing it a bit with X10, UPB, Z-Wave, Russound on the panel and its doing OK. (plus Omnitouch and Omnistat). Even went with 4-wire smokes zoned along with CO detectors; more because I could (just an exercise in wiring I guess) rather than worrying about what zone would be triggered while not present in the house.

Much less automation in Florida and working well over the last few years. Its more function and less sandbox there.

 

[tomcat335]

Just wanted to update my thread. I decided to go with the HAI OP IIe partly because the only installer I could find that dealt with it was over priced and didn't really inspire confidence. My house is small enough that I don't think that I'll need the OP II and if I ever do, I'll either replace it or add an external automation controller. It's being installed next week, and I'm looking at getting the PC Access software. I'm finding it hard to find the difference between the dealer version and the user version though. What can the dealer version do that the user one can't? Also, is there a better place to get it than with my installer? I've seen it pop up on ebay and might end up getting it from there.

 

[tmbrown97]

AutomatedOutlet.com; HomeControls.com; and there are others...