Which Smokes / CO / Propane sensors to install on Elk M1G

[facesnorth]

I am getting ready to retro-pull wire for all my low voltage wants.
 
Smokes
CO sensors
Propane gas sensors
 
Eventually doors, windows, motions, etc.  These will take longer to get around to.  I want to get the above in first.  Please advise what my best options are on specific models to install.  And what the wiring diagram should look like.  i.e. what gauge wire, how many conductors, wire all these devices in series or parallel.  EOL resistor.  All on just one zone/point on the Elk panel?  2 wire or 4 wire devices?
 
Thank you

 

[RAL]

You're going to have to do some research on smokes and CO detectors to decide what is best for your needs.  There is no simple answer. You have choices of smoke-only and CO-only detectors, plus combo units.  Then there are models which include heat detectors and/or audible alarms.
 
It's probably easiest if you go with 2-wire smokes on a single zone.   You'll need to wire these is a daisy chain using 18 AWG fire-rated cable (FPL or better).  If you can't pull wires for a strict daisy chain from one detector to another, then you can pull home runs with twice as many conductors (e.g. 4 conductors for 2-wire smokes) and wire them into a daisy chain back at the panel. Note that if you use 4-wire smokes, you'll need 8 conductors if you are pulling home runs.
 
If you use 2-wire smoke detectors wired directly to the Elk, you'll need to get smoke detectors that are approved for use with the Elk.  See the list in the M1 manual.
 
Some detectors to consider:
 
System Sensor i3 smoke detectors
System Sensor i4 Smoke/CO detectors
System Sensor CO Detectors
Macurco Combustible Gas Detectors
 
Also study up on the System Sensor interface modules (MOD2W,  RSS-MOD and COSMOD2W)

 

[facesnorth]

Cosmo-2W looks like a good unit.  That would cover both CO and Smoke.  So I wouldn't run these directly into the Elk.  I would first connect them into a COSMOD2W?  I find it difficult to research these topics sometimes as I usually still miss something.  Any benefit to doing 4-wire over 2-wire?
 
I will probably just install a propane gas detector near any propane appliances I have.  Likely 2-3 total in the house.  I don't suppose something like the Macurco's could be installed in series with the Cosmo-2W?  Or would I be installing those to a different zone or a different interface?
 
Thanks

 

[RAL]

The i4 smoke/CO detectors need to send alarm signals for both smoke and CO over the same pair of wires.  The Elk and other alarm panels aren't able to decode this, so you need the COSMOD2W module to separate them out into separate zone inputs, one for fire, the other for CO.  As an added bonus, the COSMOD2W also gives you a third signal for a maintenance zone.  That way, the detectors can signal when something is wrong.
 
From the alarm panel's point of view, the COSMOD2W makes the 2-wire detectors look like 4-wire devices with separate power and zone connections at the panel.
 
You need to connect the Macurco gas detectors to their own zone.  You can wire multiple gas detectors together on a single zone, but it has to be a separate zone from the smokes.
 
Smoke detector wiring is probably the most complex thing to wire on an alarm panel.   It's easy to go wrong if you don't plan it all out carefully.
 
I'd stick with 2-wire detectors.  With 4-wire, you have more complexity due to power supervision relays that aren't needed with 2-wire.

 

[upstatemike]

I'm surprised at how often folks go with 2-wire smokes since most panels only have a single 2-wire zone. I wouldn't want smokes spread across multiple floors and all corners of the house reporting to a single zone because you get no indication where the problem is if it goes off. If sticking a relay at the end of the line along with a resistor is really a big deal then maybe it is worthwhile to consider the Elk wireless detectors?

 

[Del91574]

I'm surprised at how often folks go with 2-wire smokes since most panels only have a single 2-wire zone. I wouldn't want smokes spread across multiple floors and all corners of the house reporting to a single zone because you get no indication where the problem is if it goes off. If sticking a relay at the end of the line along with a resistor is really a big deal then maybe it is worthwhile to consider the Elk wireless detectors?

And you have never dealt with a panel that has tandem ring involved with 7-10 smoke detectors installed on multiple zones going into trouble in time with a temporal 3 pulse or all 10 zones going into trouble upon a fire reset (minus the zone in alarm). Oh, then if you look at a CS report of the transmitted signals upon a false.....it's not just the installation of a supervision relay and resistor.
 
There's really not much of a benefit to having every device on their own zone in a small residential installation. 7-10 detectors is a compliant code installation in a 4 bedroom, 3 story house. It's not that hard to figure out the detector that went into alarm and have the system operate properly. If you have that many problems with false alarms, you have a wiring issue or design issue that needs to be addressed. If you truly need to know what detector generated the alarm, you might as well add a separate small addressable slave panel to the host panel. Solves more issues without the BS, including wiring.

 

[upstatemike]

No. I don't have experience with those situations. I have 30 smoke detectors zoned by floor across 3 floors plus basement and a few zones of attic and garage heat detectors. I use a separate common audible rather than trying to trigger the sounder in all of the detectors. The sounder in the tripped detector still operates but you would never hear it if you weren't on that floor. Over the past 30 years I have used multi-zone fire alarm panels made by Ademco and Firelite that drop power on all zones during a reset and the momentary trouble on the non-alarm zones has never been an issue.
 
Not questioning anything you are saying, I am just trying to educate myself in case I want to rework the system in the future.

 

[ano]

I thought its pretty standard for smoke and CO alarms to have an LED that stays on when a sensor was triggered?  My 4-wire sensors do. If you are interested, just walk around and look for the smoke alarm with the LED on. Pretty simple. 

 

[upstatemike]

I thought its pretty standard for smoke and CO alarms to have an LED that stays on when a sensor was triggered?  My 4-wire sensors do. If you are interested, just walk around and look for the smoke alarm with the LED on. Pretty simple. 

 
That's what I do but still want an initial indication of which floor to start on. Would take awhile to walk all 30 detectors and don't really want to climb up to the third floor if I really need to be headed to the basement.

 

[Del91574]

No. I don't have experience with those situations. I have 30 smoke detectors zoned by floor across 3 floors plus basement and a few zones of attic and garage heat detectors. I use a separate common audible rather than trying to trigger the sounder in all of the detectors. The sounder in the tripped detector still operates but you would never hear it if you weren't on that floor. Over the past 30 years I have used multi-zone fire alarm panels made by Ademco and Firelite that drop power on all zones during a reset and the momentary trouble on the non-alarm zones has never been an issue.
 
Not questioning anything you are saying, I am just trying to educate myself in case I want to rework the system in the future.

Installing separate sounders would be archaic and most of the times, the most difficult way to get what would be dictated for compliance, which 30 smokes would allude to. Non-powered devices would need to be separate from a tandem ring zone anyhow.
 
A dedicated FACP's operation is different than most combo panels. A power up reset is one item, but a tandem ring will put every zone into trouble upon the reversed voltage. Depending on the panel, although "unsupported", you can typically grab the ACS terminal and drag it into the burg system and obtain notification that way, otherwise the archaic zone trip method would be what I'd recommend.....you're not going to be putting 30 4 wire detectors on a panel without a ton of considerations anyways...like power, reset and audibles, so at that point, instead of adding 30 relays, a bunch of supplementary sounders and the like, I'd say just add an addressible panel that supports sounder bases and call it a day. Simplifies the wiring.
 
And Ano, it's a requirement that the alarmed detector latch the zone and have a visible indication. Heat detectors are generally fusible link units (exception being ROR).

 

[upstatemike]

Thanks for the info. I'll look into addressable panels to see if that is a better way to go. I'm always open to new ideas.
 
Just to be clear, I am not putting each smoke detector on a separate zone so it isn't 30 EOL relays... The wiring is zoned by floor so there are 4 smoke zones plus 3 separate heat detector zones for attic and garage spaces plus some zones for CO detectors which (according to the literature) should not be powered from the resettable power source used for smoke detectors. Common audible may be archaic but the wire is already there and nothing beats a motorized fire bell for low current draw.

 

[Del91574]

Still having a tough time buying into 30 smoke detectors, unless you have 100% coverage spacing, I've done mansions in the 15-20K SF with that amount.
 
CO detectors should always be separate from fire zones, that is a code requirement.
 
I'm more amazed that there's less manufacturers out there offering connection to addressable detectors natively, but then again, most people rip and replace panels often, which would cause compatibility issues at that point, not to mention many people have 3 or less detectors, with even less having enough to meet code.
 
Since Firelite/Honeywell discontinued their smaller addressable panel, the 9050 would be the smallest unit, then you wire groups of 6 detector and a couple of modules for the tandem ring. Caveat is you need to supervise the tandem ring loop just like a conventional circuit, but the SLC is not subject to this, so it turns into a hybrid wiring style.
 
From that point, I prefer to use the fire dialer to send the information to the CS, then send the necessary data to the host panel via serial to get the device information to the end user rather than install an annunciator. Reset, etc. can be done from the main host panel into modules of the FACP.

 

[upstatemike]

Could be I have more than needed but 6 stairwells and an old basement that is divided into several rooms divided by stone walls account for a dozen right off the bat. I'll have to review the rest to see if I really need all of them. Definitely some things to think about. Thanks for the ideas.