Why is insteon so infamous?

[ryanj]

Hey HA gurus,

I'm planning on installing a HA system in my home, and in a previous post I received some negative feedback on using an insteon setup, citing "significant issues."

I seem to find a 50/50 split between insteon and UPB fans. This discussion seemed faily positive towards insteon, as does this one too. On Cocoontech, I've seen people who prefer Insteon and people who have switched to from it to UPB in frustration.

To me the insteon switches three major selling points are:

1. they look better,
2. they're cheaper, and
3. they don't suffer from the UPB delay issues. (I'm interested in scripting some time-sensitive lighting scenes so delay could be a problem)

I'm hoping to clarify the shortcomings of these two technologies. For the insteon-savvy, could you describe the issues you've faced that have been a problem? Is it a reliability issue?

Also, could a UPB-user specify if the switch delay occurs when manually actuating the switch, when a soft signal triggers the switch, or both? Does this problem still happen on the latest version devices?

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[WayneW]

disclaimer: I am an Insteon user, was an early adopter, and use the Elk M1 for control and PowerHome for link management.

True, some people have had significant issues with Insteon and/or SmartHome. Some switched to a competitor, some worked through the issues.
The links you provided are discussion from 2005, which IMHO is irrelevant as too much has happened since then.

your three points:
# they look better - very subjective, so not much point to discuss outside your family
# they're cheaper - true, but Insteon doesn't have as big a price advantage as they used to, which angers some
# they don't suffer from the UPB delay issues - true

The Insteon communication between Insteon products is generally regarded as very good. There was some early confusion (some say misleading marketing) as to what communication was powerline and what was RF, which angered some.
The command communication between a PLC/PLM and your HA panel/software has been painful to reach maturity with some people going through multiple devices & versions, which angers some and makes life hard on developers.
Some of the early Insteon products had issues, defects, failures or however you want to spin it. Some have claimed that SmartHome support plays dumb about the issues. Most have had no trouble getting things exchanged under warranty, with SH paying shipping both ways, but you provide the labor to swap the device.
SmartHome has been notoriously late in delivering the additional products. They used to provide a bit of a roadmap, but they got burned too many times and now won't pre-announce anything.
Products from partners in the Insteon Alliance have also been late or missing.
IMHO, non of the competitors can touch an Insteon KeyPadLink for features & functionality, for the price.

So, there was a good bit of bleeding edge pain felt by many. Most of those issues are now gone or dealt with, so I feel optimistic about Insteon's future.
My comments are more directed at the DIYer. If I was a pro installer where time=money and service calls kill your profit, I would be more cautious. Of course they are supposedly plenty of happy pro installers.



The UPB delay ONLY affected local control (ie a human touch). It never affected computer control or inter-device control/linking. AFAIK, all current UPB devices have a configurable delay to minimize this issue. This issue is separate from the Gen1 versus Gen2 version of a device, but there is a lot of overlap. SAI is the main exception that still has Gen1, but has the delay improved. All others have Gen2 AND the improved delay feature.

 

[MikeB]

I've been happy with my home Insteon installation, which is fairly large. Insteon is where most of my experience lies.

Most of the problems/complaints with Insteon have been due to device failures. The majority of device failures have been paddle/switch failures (press the switch and nothing happens, press harder and maybe something happens). SmartHome announced months ago that they had begun using an improved tact switch in their devices, which should hopefully eliminate this issue. I've personally only experienced a couple of device failures out of 60/70 total, after about 1.5+ years of use.

I have only limited experience with UPB. My biggest complaint with it is the slow response when turning a light on or off via a switch. In my office where I have a couple UPB switches installed, I can hit the switch and easily walk half way into the room before the lights turn on - way too slow for my taste. 2nd generation switches supposedly improve on this greatly, though I believe they are still not as responsive as Insteon switches. I have a box full of 2nd gen switches here to install when I get the time.

I also don't like the lack of a light bar indicating the UPB switch's current dim level, and I prefer the look of the Insteon KeypadLinc over any of the UPB scene controllers. Also, the fact that the Insteon KeypadLinc controls a load is a major plus for my home and many installations.

That being said, UPB switches feel very solid and I believe they are a good product. In all honesty, I would suggest purchasing a few of each device and doing a test install before you make a decision. Only you can decide what you prefer and what you want in your home.

Insteon tends to generate a lot of 'discussion' on this forum, so be prepared.

 

[Steve]

The look and feel of switches, keypads, etc its 1000% totally subjective. Some like the light bar/pipe, some hate them. Some love the Insteon keypadlinc, some don't. I won't bother stating my opinion since that really won't help you with yours.

As for the facts... the delay issue is a moot point. The first switches used a 750ms delay when activating the local switch. That was only for local switch control, remote control/links are near instantaneous. Gen 1/2 is kind of a funny thing still. Think of Gen II simply as adding some noise abatement features. But all manufacturers currently shipping products have a reduced or configurable delay. The delay should be settable down to 300ms. The Insteon switches (at least from what I have been told) have always had a 350ms delay. So all things equal the current UPB switches should be equal to if not better (faster) than an Insteon switch.

Bottom line is for your own home both are very good products. Both products have good protocols and are reliable. With Insteon you are limited to 1 switch manufacturer, with UPB you have 3 and some choice. You are always going to find things that back up what you want. If you want Insteon and are looking for good reviews, you will find them and same with UPB. At the end of the day its all the other things like support in you compatible systems, variety, mfg support, etc that will be more important in your decision.

 

[ckindt]

I endorse UPB because I needed to write my own driver and the full protocol was published and easy to understand. I have all Gen 1 devices and never felt the need to upgrade. I notice the delay, but since I know it's deliberate, I'm alright with it and so is the family - I wouldn't change them anyway if they did care.

I studied the insteon devices somewhat and never saw any benefits and I don't remeber the protocol to be published, but maybe it's available now.

I guess my point is UPB is sound fucntionally. If you care more about asthetics, then maybe insteon has some advantages.

 

[Herdfan]

they're cheaper, and

Is it a reliability issue?

I will start by saying you get what you pay for. I was an early adopter and I had at least half of my installed devices fail for one reason or another. The two major causes (capacitor and paddle press failure) are rumored to have been fixed. But it was too late for me by then as I had already caught the Lutron train.

There are other gripes about how slow new products are to come out and now that SL has decided to scrap the current version of Houselinc and start over would scare me off as a potential customer especially since UPB has such a stable software product.

Have you looked at Z-wave?

 

[MikeB]

There are other gripes about how slow new products are to come out and now that SL has decided to scrap the current version of Houselinc and start over would scare me off as a potential customer especially since UPB has such a stable software product.

Just 2 points here -

Though Insteon did go through a lull with few new products released, things have certainly changed in the past few months. SmartHome has started shipping many of their most requested products - a relay KeypadLinc, an IR interface, a thermostat, and a solution for locations without a neutral (their 2-wire kit).

HouseLinc may not be great (though it is encouraging that they are working on a replacement product), but there are plenty of great Insteon software packages out there to choose from. PowerHome is fantastic, Indigo is fantastic, and if you want a standalone (non-PC) solution, the ISY is fantastic.

 

[Digger]

In my case probably almost every switchlinc eventually had the paddle failure, however, you can fix them yourself if you are comfortable soldering surface mount components. Many people are doing it to recoup their losses.

I am currently replacing my keypadlincs due to a problem where they will randomly start to toggle the load on/off constantly for about 5 mins or more if there is heavy traffic on the network. Its a firmware issue I was told by SH tech support but has been fixed in the newer version firmware.

One of the biggest problems with Insteon devices is that you cannot flash the firmware so if there is a problem they have to be replaced.

Yes the keypadlincs are great. The UDI ISY is FANTASTIC but even if you go with UPB keep it in mind since I think I heard that a UPB version is coming.

The PLM lockup problem is corrected in my opinion but someone recently posted on one of the forums that they were still having lockups with the newest version PLM.

Not all of the features of the protocal are in the I1 devices but supposedly they are in the I2 devices but not many are available yet.

Things to keep in mind if you go Insteon:

1.Only buy from SH or you are out of luck with warranty issues (Dont buy from a retailer and definitely stay away from eBay and forums for buying them as you will be stuck if there is a problem). SH only warrants the product to the original purchaser from SH (so if HD buys them from SH and sells to you then you are stuck). Automated Outlet though will stand behind what they sell.

2.Have extra devices on hand for possible failures

3.Dont expect fast corrections to problems or admissions by SH for known issues.

4.Dont hold your breath for new products

5.Do consider the ISY

6.Read, read, read all of the different forums (Techmall, Powerhome, UDI, Homeseer etc) to see all of the different problems people are having and see if they might affect you. If they dont.... go for it.

 

[Herdfan]

Just 2 points here -

HouseLinc may not be great (though it is encouraging that they are working on a replacement product), but there are plenty of great Insteon software packages out there to choose from. PowerHome is fantastic, Indigo is fantastic, and if you want a standalone (non-PC) solution, the ISY is fantastic.

Yes there are and Powerhome kept me in Insteon much longer than I should have been there. :blink:

My point was the manufacturer support is less than stellar as third parties can write better software than the manufacturer/developer/creator.

 

[ginigma]

I'm an Insteon/Powerhome user. I installed my first switches about 1.5 yrs ago. I've replaced most of my Switchlinc dimmers due to the paddle problem. The RMA process was easy enough, but it is a PITA to replace switches in multi-gang boxes. Overall I'm happy with my selection. WAF is good. I will be adding some Outletlincs at the next Smarthome sale.

 

[KenM]

Hi,

I am a bit of a programmer/electronics tech. In November of 2005, I got tired of X10 lights that turned on by themselves and bought into the INSTEON marketing hype, hook line and sinker. I started with a SDK membership and was very happy with that. At that point in time, a lot of SH/SL effort was devoted to making a useful SDM/PLC combo.

After I had replaced most all (I still use two X10 flood lights) of my X10 hardware with INSTEON, I started to become aware of some serious problems. The first problem was that most all INSTEON hardware just did not work as advertised ( the 'newer stuff might'). The second problem was the apparent inability of SH/SL to 'play honest' with customers. Let's face it, selling something that you know does not work right is not a good business model, we (consumers) are (usually) not that stupid.

I suspect that is why an INSTEON post will draw a lot of comments. A lot of people, like me, bought that original marketing hype and got burned, really, really bad. I only threw about $800.00 down that crap hole so I consider myself lucky. In May of 06, I started to replace my INSTEON devices with Z-Wave. A few of the early Intermatic Z-Wave devices that I had, died on me. I was able to exchange those without problems. I have been using Vizia-RF (Leviton) Z-Wave devices for over a year now and have absolutely no complaint or failures at all (your mileage may vary).

My house is relatively small, about 1500 square feet. I have two Z-Wave 'motion detector/light level' sensors installed and four of the motion detector only Z-Wave devices. With the help of HomeSeer software, I was able to automate the lights that I needed. I will mention that the Z-Wave motion detectors that I am using are 100% rock solid reliable (as in professional quality) some even have a 'tamper' switch ability.


That is my background with INSTEON, the following are some comments from my own experience with this stuff
(again your mileage may vary):

INSTEON has no motion detector, the X10 detectors are not very reliable. The Z-Wave detectors are part of your home Z-Wave network and are 100% rock solid in reliability. When the battery on my two newer Z-Wave devices started to fail, the devices sent out continuous 'motion on' signals. That is not perfect but it got my attention right away. The other Z-Wave motion detectors have a fairly reliable 'battery level' indication that is reported. When an X10 motion detector battery begins to fail, it will usually just become erratic as heck, often reverting to reporting code 'A1' at odd intervals. I would, and do, trust the safety of my home to the Z-Wave motion sensors. The bad news is that the detectors are between $60 and $120 in cost. The good news is that they are worth every cent of that.

Um, let us see, home automation without motion detectors. Funny.

I love the INSTEON 'link everything to everything' sales line. Some of that is true, some of that is BS.

If you enjoy watching infomercials at 2 AM then INSTEON has already got you, that is how their advertisement department works.

The good news. Some/most of these problems have been fixed. You guess which ones because SH/SL will not let you (normally) know.

The bad news. Their policy is (my interpretation) consumers are stupid. We should just keep selling crap and making money and send out our fanboys to discredit any valid post. Ha. Ha.


Did I mention that I am happy with Z-Wave?


Just read all of the posts that you can find prior to a big investment in INSTEON.


Ken

 

[GraysonPeddie]

Wow, KenM! Your post made me think that I smell a lawsuit coming to hit SmartLabs/SmartHome REALLY hard...

I'm not trying to defend Insteon, but wow... I don't have any device failure since I don't have a lot of devices in my home automation network.

 

[Digger]

Wow, KenM! Your post made me think that I smell a lawsuit coming to hit SmartLabs/SmartHome REALLY hard...

I'm not trying to defend Insteon, but wow... I don't have any device failure since I don't have a lot of devices in my home automation network.

Grayson you have to understand that you have a handful of plug in devices and thats about it. Others have dozens and dozens of hardwried devices that failed. Ken M has some very valid points on how SH screwed many people.

More than a few people are out thousands of dollars. SH does not care. If you notice the "fanbois" as Ken said are "related" to SH in some way in many cases (they dont want to admit it but they ahve partnerships that are coming to light). They have a vested interest in making SH look good and discredit valid complaints like Ken stated.

Nobody will bother to sue SH in my opinion. Many claimed they would and never followed through as its not worth it. There are ways though to recoup losses. I had people exchange many of my bad devices for me and SH could not do anything about it. They played a game and did not honor the warranty. I went around their roadblocks. I still have over 10 devices left to repair or exchange through friends.

You are young and in college. Just be careful you dont waste your hard earned money. Stick to a few plug in devices and enjoy!

 

[Digger]

Just 2 points here -

HouseLinc may not be great (though it is encouraging that they are working on a replacement product), but there are plenty of great Insteon software packages out there to choose from. PowerHome is fantastic, Indigo is fantastic, and if you want a standalone (non-PC) solution, the ISY is fantastic.

Yes there are and Powerhome kept me in Insteon much longer than I should have been there.

My point was the manufacturer support is less than stellar as third parties can write better software than the manufacturer/developer/creator.

they are not good at software (houselinc), firmware (everything LOL), or hardware (paddles etc)..... whats left?

 

[MikeB]

Um, let us see, home automation without motion detectors. Funny.

The beauty of home automation today is that no 1 technology has to be all-inclusive - and no technology currently has everything a user might want. Using a variety of great products out there, however, you can mix and match the best of different technologies and integrate them.

Personally, I would never use RF motion sensors for anything critical (other people may feel differently). I don't mind using one for my driveway lights (which I do), but for anything inside the home and/or security related I go hardwired. My Elk integrates them with Insteon very well.

While Insteon RF motion sensors would be nice, I'm glad other products have been higher on their priority list. That being said, word at EHX was that motion sensors are now fairly high up in their queue.