Wire gauge on smokes

[Del91574]

Addressable units are a proprietary protocol per manufacturer. I typically deal with CLIP and Flashscan for the majority of our addressable installs.

CLIP is a slower protocol, older technology and panels. It allows 99 each detectors/modules per loop, however each module must be polled on the SLC individually.

FS is fast, however a fully loaded loop slows down considerably, but still faster than CLIP. You can have 159 each detectors/modules per loop. The panel polls blocks of 10 devices and compares/waits for a device to report a change.

The smallest addressable panel takes 25 (total) devices. The next panel takes 159 each detectors/modules and then the next panel doubles that to 318/each. The largest panel we use takes 3180 of each device. Now...take the panels and network them together, either 100 nodes tied together via ARCNET/slow network or up to 200 on a high speed ARCNET network where each panel/network annunciator or workstation is it's own network node. In many cases, you can have multiple panels networked together in the same cabinet, not just a single "large" panel.

I have 2 larger networked sites and 1 has 50 networked panels, not including "dumb" analog panels or pre-action panels tied to other panels and the larger has somewhere around 25 panels each with 10 SLC's running between 200-318 devices each. They've got a little delay on the SLC and network operations, however for anything in a residence that exceeds 15 detectors I'd recommend spending the cash and getting one of the newer, smaller addressable panels.

 

[newalarm]

Lou Apo, i should have clarified, i ran the 18/4 daisy chained throught the main house, ran a home run for rental. So I will have two zones for fire alarm. Eventually will have third for garage when we get to it. I left the 22/4 wire HR to each smoke.

Wonder why they have not yet done addressable for home alarms. seems so easy. Plus the whole common sence aspect of knowing exactly what smoke went off so you can locate problem quickly. But i guess you are right, in a small house, it should be evident.

 

[Del91574]

Economics.

Price point for the panels as well as limits the system, making the items incompatible on a panel change out. Devices also cost more, sometimes 2X the base cost of a traditional analog device. The fact of the matter is memory and panel abilities cost money....I had Bosch answer this way in a training class regarding a couple of their panels, such as which would you prefer, a 6 zone panel or an 8 zone panel, with 2 zones not supporting EOLR's. Would you rather pay $X more for a panel with a built in relay or pay $X-25 for a panel with a socket and buy the relay for only the installs you need it for. Same goes for other panels I use daily. One panel supports only 318 devices, no expansion, but is the exact same board as the other that supports 318 devices, but allows a card to be added to support 318 more.

Only one manufacturer and 1 panel has it, which is a Caddx NX-8, and only via an add-on board to gain the SLC. Ademco offers it via RPM's on the V-128 and higher boards.

Truth be told, with everything except the larger and more integrated installs, homeowners are fickle and panels are swapped out all the time on the residential side for many reasons, including account takeovers/promotional items.

A commercial application with addressable devices is not subject to be yanked for trivial reasons, and honestly, if the panel's down, there's a whole other ball game involved, including the AHJ's and usually fire watches on required systems until the new system is commissioned.

A small (25 device) addressable panel, costs 2X what most people pay for a HA panel and the devices cost 1.5X or 2X a normal smoke or module, and heat detectors are 10X the cost of an analog unit.

I've been suggesting to Elk since the M1 came out to add an SLC or add on board to support an industry standard addressable device, with the most common being made by Honeywell/Fire-Lite, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[sanders2222]

All this talk about wire and it sounds like we have real experts in this thread. What about the detectors?

I want to retrofit an older home with a new ELK M1 and add smoke detectors to each of my 3 bedrooms. I currently have 1 120V detector in the upstairs hallway which was a requirement when the home was built. Where do I need to mount the new detectors (in each bedroom ceiling)? Does it have to be exactly in the center of the ceiling? What if I have a ceiling fan in the middle of my ceiling, where do I locate the detector then?

Finally, what detector is a good match for the Elk M1? And is there a a good reason to pick a 2-wire or 4-wire detector?

 

[Digger]

Economics.

Only one manufacturer and 1 panel has it, which is a Caddx NX-8, and only via an add-on board to gain the SLC. Ademco offers it via RPM's on the V-128 and higher boards.

Are you saying there is only one panel that you can add a board to so you can gain SLC devices and its the NX-8?

 

[apostolakisl]

All this talk about wire and it sounds like we have real experts in this thread. What about the detectors?

I want to retrofit an older home with a new ELK M1 and add smoke detectors to each of my 3 bedrooms. I currently have 1 120V detector in the upstairs hallway which was a requirement when the home was built. Where do I need to mount the new detectors (in each bedroom ceiling)? Does it have to be exactly in the center of the ceiling? What if I have a ceiling fan in the middle of my ceiling, where do I locate the detector then?

Finally, what detector is a good match for the Elk M1? And is there a a good reason to pick a 2-wire or 4-wire detector?

There is no benefit to putting a smoke detector in the middle of the ceiling. You don't want to put it right near the wall or up in a gable. These locations tend to stay smoke free longer in the event of a fire.

Codes vary, but the usual is as follows: You are required a detector in each room in which someone might sleep, at least one on each floor of a home, and one outside of each sleaping area (which may count as the one on each floor). For example, if you have 3 bedrooms on the second floor, you need one in each of those rooms and one in the hallway. Plus one on the first floor unless you have a bedroom on the first floor then you would need one in the bedroom and one outside of the bedroom. A bedroom generally is any room with a closet.

 

[Del91574]

Digger, I'm sure you'll inform me if I'm missing a panel or platform, but I know of these, with the first 3 being available through normal distribution networks:

One is a Caddx NX8E-CF with a NX-2192E and compatible addressable smokes. That would be the only platform I know of that has an add on board for a multiplex loop

Another could also use an Ademco Vista panel that has a polling loop (Vplex) with a 5192SD, however the multiplex loop is built into the panel, so the platform would need to be planned out first.

Yet another is the Napco Gemini-C, however this is more of a commercial platform and a new entry to the marketplace.

You could also use a DMP XR100 or XR500, however DMP is not generally available to anyone except an authorized dealer.

The same goes with a Bosch/Radionics panel, such as G series (7212,7412,9412) however they used to be a closed distribution network as Radionics and would only sell to you if you had a valid training certificate, and then they would only sell the products that you were certified in. I have not had to purchase a panel from Bosch in a few years, so I am unsure if they are still enforcing the dealer network.

The only panels I can call "price point conscious" for a "normal" install would be either the Caddx or Ademco products. The other point I would make is that all of these panels, with the exception of the Napco, which honestly, is a commercial fire panel for all intents and purposes, with burglar alarm capabilities, only offer smoke detectors as their addressable points.