Workshop/Garage Security

[heitjer]

I have a huge advantage; between the metal building wall and the stud framing is a 6 inch space from the metal vertical beams. I can run wires later and just drop them in easily. But you got me thinking.

What cable connection do I need between the garage and the house when the ELK moves to the house? You mentioned a cat5 and that is easy. What is the possible fiber cable for?

I have right now a 1 1/2" conduit to the power pole for cable, security cameras and other relevant stuff. I was planning to use the same between the garage and the house later as well.

Also - my power pole is 150 ft away - what security camera and associated cable would you recommend? Is this still feasible to run it on a cat5 with power on two twisted wires?

 

[tmbrown97]

When the Elk moves, a Cat5 will take care of the databus - the only other thing you might like would be an 18/4 so you have access to outputs 1 & 2 although for 2 I'd just run a separate siren off an output board.

Fiber is just one of those cheap things to future-proof. It's also actually a better alternative to copper for Ethernet because its immune to lightning/ESD.

What a lot of people may not realize is that just because you have conduit, don't assume you can just add another wire whenever - that's not really the case. You really want to pull all necessary wires at once. Sure you might get lucky and be able to use some string to pull one more wire, but you always risk getting tangled up and stuck or worse, damaging the existing runs. Whenever it comes time to run something know that you run the risk of having to redo the entire run. My point is to run anything you think you'll need the first time around.

For cameras, it kinda depends. Often you'd be fine with a camera with lower power requirements. If your climate requires the use of temperature controlled enclosures your power requirements jump quite a bit. I'd be tempted to throw a 16/4 in there just for future flexibility.

Also any gates should have a control and sensor wire either back to the garage or house - probably a cat5 so you have enough pairs to interface with the gate, intercom, and maybe a driveway sensor.

Every case is different but those are my thoughts to give lots of flexibility.

Also make sure you get the right kind of cable; for the Cat5 cable, the direct burial gel filled shielded cable is safest with surge suppression where it enters each structure. Also have your LV conduit 18" away from your power conduit.

 

[drvnbysound]

I gotta get out of this area - What I'd do with a nice workshop...

As for conduit entering the building, most of the time I've been stuck going up the exterior then entering via the side. Depending on the size of the conduit and what's in it, usually there's an LB fitting to help with pulling. For larger commercial stuff you end up with a large metal box and removable cover.

If you can get it inside the wall, that's even better - just come up 2' into the exterior wall and have an access panel to access it and for connecting interior to exterior wiring. Around here, that's also right next to the breaker box so it's a good place to ground with lightning/surge arrestors as well when you make the connection to the interior wiring. Then run conduit up to the attic or basement in case future changes are needed.

Thanks for responding. Sorry for not being more specific; I certainly understand what an LB fitting was before you listed one. My question is more along the lines of what would you connect the LB to? Would you install an exterior demarc type enclosure for the LB to connect to, or are you suggesting to enter the home via the LB alone? My concern with doing the latter is how it is (and more importantly isn't) physically connected to the home. Generally, when I've seen an LB used, it is used in conjunction with a male threaded fitting into an enclosure where a 'nut' is used on the inside of the enclosure to tighten and hold the LB into place. What I haven't figured out is, If the LB was used alone to enter the home, how it's secured and sealed to the exterior wall.

 

[Del91574]

When the Elk moves, a Cat5 will take care of the databus - the only other thing you might like would be an 18/4 so you have access to outputs 1 & 2 although for 2 I'd just run a separate siren off an output board.

Fiber is just one of those cheap things to future-proof. It's also actually a better alternative to copper for Ethernet because its immune to lightning/ESD.

I would not make a blanket statement like this. You need to consider the overall length of the entire data bus and it needs to add up to under 4000', and by running a feed/return based setup, your practical distance is halfed unless you consider that a separate and single branch on the 485 bus, however it still comes out of the same 4000' budget. If you're running any distance, conductors for the data will need to be oversided from a typical Category cable size to account for voltage drop, and when running a separate data bus branch like this, especially to an outbuilding, I would recommend not feeding power but only running a common negative in addition to the data pair back to the panel.

Also, if any fire alarm is considered, though most don't do it, code requirement is for surge suppression on the data lines where they leave and enter a building (both sides), while many will argue about code, etc. it's foolhearted to not install suppression when running between buildings.

In the case of LB's, it depends on the installation, however it is not necessary to run directly to an enclosure, it can be used to connect to a "sleeve" piece of conduit, securing the pipe to an outside wall comes down to workmanship practices.

 

[tmbrown97]

Wasn't necessarily a blanket statement - obviously the OP has to do some planning when it comes time to do the move, but right now he's trying to cover what wiring will be needed. If the workshop is 1500ft away, obviously there will be more to worry about but I didn't suspect that to be the case.

I thought for sure I included notes somewhere in the thread about using a separate power-supply for the workshop when the time comes and the need for adequate surge protection - but I'm not going to reread the whole thread just to see.

The Elk is a little sensitive to ESD/Surge and any time you have cables running underground or between buildings, it's a good idea to use proper grounding techniques on both ends. As stated above, that's also another reason I like using Fiber for connecting building for networking - media converters to get back to Ethernet don't cost very much.

 

[Del91574]

I'm not rereading the thread for surge protection or separate power supplies either, it should be basic design criteria for outbuildings and runs.

I can't say I've found the M1 sensitive to ESD or surge compared to any other panel out there, but the main item that starts coming into play is how many systems it can be interconnected to and have completely different ground references. How the surge situation is mitigated is key, such as surge on TCP/IP and any other system it's going to connect to, barring the standard recommendations for AC and telco suppression.

Not saying it completely was a blanket statement, but when considering outbuildings, unless dedicating a separate branch to that data bus, it's very easy to come close to the maximum the panel will support since running category cables effectively halfs the 4K length limit. We've had to drag out TDR's and start shooting cables on other's prewires and even go to DBHR's instead of the passive hubs to help knock down total bus length before. 4K is very easy to hit when running outbuildings and multiple partitions when wiring using category cables and/or passive hubs.

 

[tmbrown97]

We're fortunate here in that lightning issues are almost non-existent, but I still like to do what's right.

If we want to get into the specifics of the attached workshop, it should generally be its own branch of the databus. Without doing a quick refresher on the M1's DB, I believe a lot of common users terminate one branch and send the other to a DBH. In a case like this, you'd be sure to use one branch just for the workshop and one for the home. A DBHR could help if you were really pushing distance limitations. You could also end up with a DBH in the workshop and one in the house - basically one on each leg if memory serves me right. I'd still double-check all this before doing it in practice.

Once you incorporate a separate building, you want to ensure adequate surge protection and prevent noise and transient voltage from entering the wires. Using shielded burial-rated cable with proper surge protection and drains will go a long way. Also the workshop should have its own power supply to re-power any devices out there - with its own adequately sized battery backup (sized for slightly longer than the house) and everything connected to the M1 needs to have the negatives bound to keep a consistent ground reference.

This is all stuff that sounds to be months (if not longer) away though so the OP will likely come back then to ask how to do it correctly. For now it's just reference material.

 

[Del91574]

Not arguing the point with you work, but for clarity's sake to the OP's and others not as well versed...

The DBHR's don't increase the maximum allowable distance on the M1, they just allow a different topology, far different than a DBH. Still have the same 4000' limitation, since Elk doesn't have repeaters or regeneration of data through their units, nor is there an easy way to extend the distance (I've asked, such as short haul modems and other methods I've used for other purposes, no go).

You can install multiple DBH's as long as there's only 2 branches, so installing 2 branches in 2 buildings is possible with this method, however by using the passive units, each individual bus device's distance is effectively doubled as far as the M1 goes.

I really can't say I see the intrinsic value of installing DBH's short of locating the terminator within the panel; they complicate the terminations of the cabling, they don't allow breaking out power to divide loads, nor do they allow breaking out the inputs or outputs from KP's. For those that aren't skilled with wiring, asking them to properly crimp and terminate RJ45's may be a lesson in futility.

Unfortunately, with the history of alarm systems within my section of the country, we've had some residential systems in place for 60+ years in many cases, some even longer, so the retrofit market is far stronger here, I believe, than other portions of the country and as a direct consequence, had to learn how these panels can be put in or adapted to existing cabling and applications as well as how they don't work, dating back to the old Optex/Morse panels.

 

[tmbrown97]

No issues here - that all makes perfect sense.

I think most newcomers from the DIY crowd that get into the M1 like the RJ45 because it's simple and comfortable, and it tends to just "click" better than understanding how to keep the path wired correctly on the databus. Also remember a lot of the DIY'ers who would attempt this are tinkerers so the flexibility to add/change databus devices on a whim suits them, and it does simplify troubleshooting immensely.

 

[heitjer]

Thanks a bunch so far! I am sure I will be back with lots of questions ones I am getting to the installation.