your 2 cents on my smoke alarm setup with elk m1

Can I ask where you are getting your facts/information?


So many sources.
Which facts do you dispute? Do you really believe that a 120V relay without battery backup would be used to monitor a fire sensor? I mean, most of this is common sense when you get into it. Other rules are designed so that the average homeowner can maintain their system. While you think replacing a 12V lead acid battery in a panel isn't hard, just insuring that people replace the 9v battery in smoke alarms is a challenge. Still other rules were designed to minimize false alarms and needless expenses to the city. When you view it from many points-of-view, most of the rules really do make sense.
 
This has been discussed over and over so just search, but short answer no, its not good. First those relays aren't designed for that purpose, and if they power goes out, they will either trip the alarm when they shouldn't or not trip it when they should. If your alarm is monitored, you are sending the fire dept. to your house perhaps needlessly. And 120v smokes are ionization type, which if you notice 12V smokes aren't, and many times it IS against code to have a ionization type smoke on a monitored panel.

Just the fact that it won't work when the power goes out should be reason enough not to do it.

Interesting. So are you suggesting that the interconnect aspect of 120v alarms also doesn't work when the power is out? (i.e., just the local unit sounds?)
 
Interesting. So are you suggesting that the interconnect aspect of 120v alarms also doesn't work when the power is out? (i.e., just the local unit sounds?)

That is correct, typically those relays that connect to 120V smoke alarms would not operate if the power went out. They are designed to control ventilation fans and fire doors, both of which also only operate with 120V power. Maybe there are relays out there with a battery backup, but most don't have that. I'm not 100% sure if the interconnected alarm triggering only operates with 120V power or note. Its best to test that to be 100% sure.
 
Interesting. So are you suggesting that the interconnect aspect of 120v alarms also doesn't work when the power is out? (i.e., just the local unit sounds?)

I don't think the local sounding even works. Perhaps things are different now, but my old house which was built in the late 80's had the interconnected 120v smokes and they had no battery in them.

Of course most house fires do not cause the electricity to go out until things are way out of hand. But, if the power goes out first, then you light candles, then you fall asleep, then the house catches on fire. . . could be trouble.
 
You make a lot if statements that I can not find as facts and I am interested to know where you found them.

You say ionization detectors are not permitted to be connected to a FACP. Where do you find that? Currently there is a study to possibly require dual technology detectors. I can't find anywhere that it is not permitted to connect an ionization detector to a FACP. Perhaps some local code? But where did you see it?

Also the NJ residency code references using UL 217 smoke alarms connected to a FACP and we are questioning that as our customers are being required to do that.
 
You make a lot if statements that I can not find as facts and I am interested to know where you found them.

You say ionization detectors are not permitted to be connected to a FACP. Where do you find that? Currently there is a study to possibly require dual technology detectors. I can't find anywhere that it is not permitted to connect an ionization detector to a FACP. Perhaps some local code? But where did you see it?

Also the NJ residency code references using UL 217 smoke alarms connected to a FACP and we are questioning that as our customers are being required to do that.

Yes, local codes here. I can't speak for anywhere else.

So here is Automated Outlet's page of 12V smokes. (They have a good selection)
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Browse-Products?search=smoke

Lots of different brands. So how many of these are photoelectric and how many ionization type? NONE are ionization type that I could see.

I can't say that 12V ionization ones don't exist, or dual detection 12v ones don't exist, but most common seems like the photoelectric type.

Ionization alarms are really sensitive, but they also cause lots of false alarms. That is a really good thing to wake people, so that is why non-monitored smokes are typically that type. A FACP means that an alarm summons the fire department which isn't good if you just overcooked your toast.

The dual-detector requirement is interesting. No doubt the best for detecting a fire but I wonder about the false alarms. Codes vary so what might be a problem in one place may be a problem in another. Here we have to have sprinklers, so maybe that changes things.

No doubt, the codes can be screwy.
 
I don't think the local sounding even works. Perhaps things are different now, but my old house which was built in the late 80's had the interconnected 120v smokes and they had no battery in them.
I have interconnected 120V smokes that have battery backups. Firex Model FADC.

Just for grins I just decided to look up some details on them - they will sound when running on battery; it's vague on if it'll trigger the interconnected ones. The manual does say that the relay won't operate without AC power and not to use with battery backup units.

Looking up accessories though - on the accessory page it lists relays as being available to: "Enable security system devices to interact with FireX direct wire powered smoke or carbon monoxide alarms" - however, when looking at the manual for the relay, it says "The relay module is not recommended for use with automatic dialers or security alarm panels."

Reading further on the accessory page, I think this must be what they're talking about for interaction with FireX smoke alarms" - they have a remote interface that's meant to let you trigger the smoke alarms based on connection of a normally open switch - so a relay off a panel or something like that.

This is always an interesting topic because what it really seems like is that the market desires and the code standards have not aligned and there's no safe/recommended/legal way to satisfy both. What I would love to see is interconnected 120V dual-mode sensors with a GE wireless transmitter inside that only activates on the more sensitive alarm - and don't forget CO as well... :eek:
 
Yes, local codes here. I can't speak for anywhere else.

So here is Automated Outlet's page of 12V smokes. (They have a good selection)
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Browse-Products?search=smoke

Lots of different brands. So how many of these are photoelectric and how many ionization type? NONE are ionization type that I could see.

I can't say that 12V ionization ones don't exist, or dual detection 12v ones don't exist, but most common seems like the photoelectric type.

Ionization alarms are really sensitive, but they also cause lots of false alarms. That is a really good thing to wake people, so that is why non-monitored smokes are typically that type. A FACP means that an alarm summons the fire department which isn't good if you just overcooked your toast.

The dual-detector requirement is interesting. No doubt the best for detecting a fire but I wonder about the false alarms. Codes vary so what might be a problem in one place may be a problem in another. Here we have to have sprinklers, so maybe that changes things.

No doubt, the codes can be screwy.

Ok if it is a local code can you tell me where you are (PM me if you dont want to post)? There are a lot of questions that come up daily at work and we find a lot of localaties misinterpret requirements and mislead installers which hurts mfg sales.

Case in point NJ installers are being told by the state that the hardware has to be evaluated to the NJ Residency Code, however, that code has no requirements for hardware but does seem to state that smoke alarms may be connected to a FACP instead of adding smoke detectors which goes against what is said in this thread. Unfortunately I dont have a copy of the code on my computer as it may only be installed on one computer and it was supposedly expensive.
 
From what I can find the IRC (International Residency Code) Part R313 states

All smoke alarms shall be Listed in Accordance with UL217 and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code and the household fire and warning equipment provisions of NFPA 72.

Household fire alarm systems installed in accordance with NFPA 72 that include smoke alarms, or a combination of smoke detectors and audible notification device installed as required by this section for smoke alarms shall be permitted.

There is more to the clause but the above is apparently why the NJ State Fire Marshals Office is stating it is acceptable to use smoke alarms and FACP. I personally did not speak with them my VP of Engineering did.

Your locality may or may not have similar interpretations.
 
From what I can find the IRC (International Residency Code) Part R313 states



There is more to the clause but the above is apparently why the NJ State Fire Marshals Office is stating it is acceptable to use smoke alarms and FACP. I personally did not speak with them my VP of Engineering did.

Your locality may or may not have similar interpretations.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Obviously smoke sensors can be used with FACP. I think at issue is can smoke alarms, that were never designed to connect to a FACP through a relay not designed to connect a smoke alarm to a FACP, and not even employing a battery backup or having the ability for a battery back up, can that all be used together? If you think the answer is yes, go right ahead. Even if the codes say such a connection is allowed, all the equipment has to be designed for that purpose, and in this case it clearly isn't. In fact I would even go further. If its not the standard practice, I wouldn't do it, even if it was technically allowed and even if the inspector allowed it.
 
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Obviously smoke sensors can be used with FACP. I think at issue is can smoke alarms, that were never designed to connect to a FACP through a relay not designed to connect a smoke alarm to a FACP, and not even employing a battery backup or having the ability for a battery back up, can that all be used together? If you think the answer is yes, go right ahead. Even if the codes say such a connection is allowed, all the equipment has to be designed for that purpose, and in this case it clearly isn't. In fact I would even go further. If its not the standard practice, I wouldn't do it, even if it was technically allowed and even if the inspector allowed it.

When you are stating that smoke alarms are not designed are you sure there are none? I am not aware of a specific model but we are hearing from installers it is a common practice to meet the IRC as adopted by many loacalities (and many have their own version such as NJ). To meet the IRC a smoke alarm would have to fully function on battery so any model that does not would not be permitted anyway with or without a FACP connection.

For people who are told they have to have smoke alarms the IRC has an exception if they have smoke detectors connected to a FACP so they dont need to have both to meet the IRC (unless there are additional local requirements).
NJ specifically has the exception as long as it provides the same coverage as smoke alarms.

I know of smoke alarm designs that have been kicked around for years now that would interconnect to a FACP wirelessly etc (heck remember Insteon said they were going to but dropped it). There are others out there and in fact there will probably be more shortly since the NFPA is ending the exception for 4 hour supervision of smoke detectors (will be 200 seconds in 2013 I believe). The same technology that will be required in wireless smoke detectors could be applied to smoke alarms.
 
For people who are told they have to have smoke alarms the IRC has an exception if they have smoke detectors connected to a FACP so they dont need to have both to meet the IRC (unless there are additional local requirements).
NJ specifically has the exception as long as it provides the same coverage as smoke alarms.

Hmmm.. That's a scary one. The reason to ALWAYS require a 120v interconnected system with 9v backup batteries is because your average 5th grader could maintain such a system. Maybe those in NJ are pretty smart, and know how to maintain a FACP or hire someone who can, but around here I know that certainly isn't the case. My wife, who has a masters degree and a very smart woman wouldn't know how to replace the 12V lead acid battery on the panel and know where to get a replacement. I read too many times about the people who fail to replace their 9V batteries because they were too lazy, I don't even want to think about that one.
 
Hmmm.. That's a scary one. The reason to ALWAYS require a 120v interconnected system with 9v backup batteries is because your average 5th grader could maintain such a system. Maybe those in NJ are pretty smart, and know how to maintain a FACP or hire someone who can, but around here I know that certainly isn't the case. My wife, who has a masters degree and a very smart woman wouldn't know how to replace the 12V lead acid battery on the panel and know where to get a replacement. I read too many times about the people who fail to replace their 9V batteries because they were too lazy, I don't even want to think about that one.

The difference here is that the vast majority of peopel with central alarm systems have a service that will automatically be summoned when the 12v needs replacing. In fact, most cities have it as code that if you have an alarm system, you are required to have it monitored. At least here they do. If your alarm goes off and the neighbor calls, they give you a ticket (maybe they won't if it is actually on fire???)
 
Part of the code is the system is required to be a permanent fixture of the home and must be maintained under a service contract etc.

The code is extensive and many people hear different things that they think are code but have never studied it and cant tell the difference between rumour and fact because the code is not readily available. I am trying to study it when I have access to it at work.
 
I used the word "code" and I was a bit sloppy. I believe I should have said "ordinance". It may be code as well, but it is definitely an offense that typically gets you a warning on the first offense and then a ticket if they get called again. The police enforce it, not the building inspector.
I understand that this is very common in many cities to prevent nuisance false alarms and police getting called to homes to investigate why a siren is sounding with no further info.
 
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