zWave/RF/human impact

[IVB]

And I wish Vivek would not have either.

As said over PM, sorry about this; I was just trying to get additional data as I know nothing about this area, didn't think I'd get any judgemental responses.

It does make me wonder why the rate of diseases like Parkinsons is so much higher in the US than other countries, although then again i'm rougly 10000X more likely to die of Malaria in India than here.

 

[Squintz]

I'm sorry if I came of as judemental. I did not intend to sound that way. I was simply stating my opinion and was not saying steve was wrong. In fact I wish steve would post more details on the subject because he may know something I don't. I am always open to new information. I'm sure nobody here is trying bashing steve for his opinions. I personally want to know why steve thinks this way so I can be most respectful in future conversations.

 

[Rupp]

There's obviously something going on in the topic that hasn't surfaced. "Don't show your immaturity, ignorance and disrespect with comments like "Are you serious?"
Wow! Where did that come from?
I seriously thought this was a joke.

 

[Aaron]

I had a convo with Steve @EHX, still trying to determine what my opinion is.

His basic theory about how to approach his own house is that all this RF/wireless stuff bombarding our house/bodies could be a bad thing...

Unfortunately, statements like these are typically spoken by people with no actual knowledge of the subject or related science... or fact and actually counter to numerous studies that have occurred on the subject and related topics showing no harm in normal use... e.g. not 1 billion times the normal radiation aimed at a single point on your body - this may actually do damage.

My favorite is... "your cell phone will screw with the airplane's equipment"... RIGHT! Yes, forget the fact that there is a multiple of millions of times more RF bombarding the plane at 30k feet then your cell phone could ever do. Plus, the sensitive equipment is actually shielded for that reason. Your cell phone, MP# player, CD player, etc WILL NEVER do ANYTHING to mess with the equip! They've actually tested this many, many times.

Sheesh!

 

[Squintz]

When I was working on my pilots license my instructor told us that the no cell phone rule on the planes is an FCC rule because at the height you cell phone will transmit many many miles which means it would be in range of a whole bunch of cell towers. I'm not sure what the result is but I think he explained that this plays havoc with the cell towers or something. I'm not sure how much truth is in that tho. Just something I recall him saying.

 

[MikeB]

Here's a pretty good explanation of the cell phone / airplane thing:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question230.htm

Makes sense to me. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Squintz]

Here's a pretty good explanation of the cell phone / airplane thing:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question230.htm

Makes sense to me. Better safe than sorry.

And here is the FCC's advisory notice talking about what I said a few post up.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html

Looks like in 2004 they second guessed the theory that phones in the sky would cause problems on the ground but since they could not prove it either way they decided to keep the ban.

IMO the airlines love this rule because if you really need to make a call from the plane the you will just need to use their phones which are on the plane and cost about $5/minute or something crazy like that. I just want to turn my phone on to check my e-mail. I think if I had to listen to someone talking on their phone during a 3 hour flight I may get a little pissed.

 

[MikeB]

I personally like the quiet time I get when I'm forced to turn my cell phone off. Maybe I should fly more often.

 

[IVB]

My name is Vivek, and i'm a royal idiot. I've been wondering about zWave, and what I would do all over again.

I was even thinking about it yesterday as I was putting in hardwired window sensors in some windows, then realized I have 16 damn wireless window sensors all over the house which are *constantly* transmitting, including 2 in my kids bedroom 4' from their beds. Hell, that's how the damn things work. (Well, supposedly work - I still can't get stability with them). At least with zWave, I can dial down the polling at a switch level to whatever I want through a simple CQC admin screen.

So that leads me to think that I should be consistent with my concerns. Either use a wireless technology for Security & Lighting, or don't. Don't be penny-wise, pound-foolish, and use UPB for lighting but wireless for sensors.

 

[upstatemike]

My name is Vivek, and i'm a royal idiot. I've been wondering about zWave, and what I would do all over again.

I was even thinking about it yesterday as I was putting in hardwired window sensors in some windows, then realized I have 16 damn wireless window sensors all over the house which are *constantly* transmitting, including 2 in my kids bedroom 4' from their beds. Hell, that's how the damn things work. (Well, supposedly work - I still can't get stability with them). At least with zWave, I can dial down the polling at a switch level to whatever I want through a simple CQC admin screen.

So that leads me to think that I should be consistent with my concerns. Either use a wireless technology for Security & Lighting, or don't. Don't be penny-wise, pound-foolish, and use UPB for lighting but wireless for sensors.

If you are saying that you have decided not to switch to UPB just because of concerns about exposure to Z-Wave RF, I would have to agree. What I have gotten from this discussion is basically this:

Are Cell Phones dangerous? Probably yes, based on proximity and duration of exposure.

Are RF security sensors and Z-Wave switches dangerous? Unlikely, due to intermittent operation and added distance (good old inverse square law). Probably a much lower threat than say the EMF from a TV picture tube.

Are powerline switches safer than Z-Wave? Probably not, unless you have all of your power wires in conduit or BX (which I do). In your typical romex/sheetrock/plastic siding house, I doubt that the PLC signal radiating from the romex is significantly safer than the signal radiating from a Z-Wave switch.

 

[IVB]

If you are saying that you have decided not to switch to UPB just because of concerns about exposure to Z-Wave RF,

Yep, that's what i'm saying, plus if I'm ok with wireless window sensors, then I should be ok with zWave RF. Anything less is me being hypocritical.

This conversation has also cemented going with *some* hardwired system in the future, even if it's just a 24load Centralite. If not from a safety perspective, then from a stability/future-proofing perspective.

 

[HighTest]

My wife and I have three wonderful and adorable highly intelligent but "highly excitable and difficult to process to much external stimuli" children. As to the cause, we attribute that likely to the life choices of the birthparrents and possible genes versus RF exposure. This is not to discount the possible impact, nor to impune those that have significant concern about the impact on their children. For example, for some, there is significant concern that Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) could be caused by vaccinations. See http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/faq_vaccines.htm for more info if this topic is of interest. There are are still both sides to the hypothesis and I doubt it can be answered to know for certain either way. Likely RF impacts are also going to be extremely subjective to difficulty in determine causal effects to ASD and other possible impacts.

For my own situation, and will a little non-PC humor:

I live where there is significant WiMax deployment. So I'll be receiving that much more RF than with TV, Cellular telephony, stray Microwave splashback (couple towers in the area) and also whatever is used by an international airport. Adding very low power Z-wave device emissions to this pack of bombardment isn't going to make much difference. What I would like to see is if there is a Tyvek housewrap that is also RF albative, I'd ripp off all my siding to add this to my home. Of course, as upstatemike mentions, I'll also need to gut my home to redo all the electrical wiring through conduit or BX to block internal RF emissions. Shoot, might just be easier to build a new home from scratch with those items and then sell the existing home :wacko:

Of course, one possible silver lining is that all the RF could stimulate the pineal gland (the portion in the brain that has been hypothesized for ESP potential) turning my family into the Fantastic Four. More likely this would be something like that horror flick "From Beyond".

 

[upstatemike]

Adding very low power Z-wave device emissions to this pack of bombardment isn't going to make much difference.

I'm not sure that is true since the risk comes from the cumulative total exposure. A lot of "safe" levels could add up to an unsafe level. You might need one of these to verify that Z-Wave doesn't put you over the line.

 

[HighTest]

Adding very low power Z-wave device emissions to this pack of bombardment isn't going to make much difference.

I'm not sure that is true since the risk comes from the cumulative total exposure. A lot of "safe" levels could add up to an unsafe level. You might need one of these to verify that Z-Wave doesn't put you over the line.

True, however it's not yet known what is a "safe" level (if there is one it's likely much less than what we are currently exposed to). But in that case, would UPB with the 40V pulses create more RF over my unshielded power line than Z-Wave would?

Even if I decided a ludite lifestyle is necessary to protect the health of my family, where does one go? You still have Sat signals broadcasting over the continent for TV services (and not just one provider and one Sat either. Plus the spot beams for local in local support that is of higher power for low FEC). Heck, even underwater, you'd have ULF RF (ultra low frequency) as used by Submarine communications.

 

[upstatemike]

True, however it's not yet known what is a "safe" level (if there is one it's likely much less than what we are currently exposed to). But in that case, would UPB with the 40V pulses create more RF over my unshielded power line than Z-Wave would?

Even if I decided a ludite lifestyle is necessary to protect the health of my family, where does one go? You still have Sat signals broadcasting over the continent for TV services (and not just one provider and one Sat either. Plus the spot beams for local in local support that is of higher power for low FEC). Heck, even underwater, you'd have ULF RF (ultra low frequency) as used by Submarine communications.

I know you aren't seriously asking me this question. I am the guy who lives in an RF "dead zone" (cannot even receive OTA TV signals), has my AC wiring shielded, refuses to install wi-fi in my home, and lines my hats with aluminum foil to keep out the government's mind control waves... do you really want me to suggest how far you need to go?