DIY HAI?

[Deephaven]

Danny - I think most people are familiar with your product by now and we like to see the 'advertising' a little lower key. I don't think it really helps you to put screen shots in many different threads, it just makes them longer and harder to read. If you are going to plug your product, please at least try to use links to other threads or your own site for pictures, etc. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. But while we're on the subject, I'd kind of like to know where you see this product fitting. I mean, on one end you have HAI and their own screens and now Home Assistant which looks very capable. Me personally, if I wanted my own touch screens and bringing a pc into the mix, I would want much more than just a touch screen interface, I would want a full HA package to do the things the panel doesn't, like TTS, etc. I see Myro kind of in the middle somewhere, not really a full automation/touchscreen solution but using your own pc hardware. So, how would you categorize Myro and its fit compared to Home Assistant and something like CQC or Mainlobby, or Homeseer/HSTouch?

I think you mean HAI Automation Studio, there is no HAI Home Assistant (at least I don't know about it, if there is please post some info).

1) Automation Studio currently works with only two HAI panels and doesn't not offer as rich UI features.
2) It also relies on someone to "play designer" and time is money.
3) The capabilities in Myro:Home are exactly those of what is programmed on an HAI panel but displayed and controlled in a much more user friendly way.
4) Myro:Home adds more value to HAI panels... look at the UI and details. There is no other product out right now that comes close in it's price range and capabilities.
5) 8" in-wall touch panel will be released soon for those that don't want to use Netbooks or lower priced machines. The option is there! You can now have consistent interfaces across the board.
6) Myro:Home extends your HAI system with power, weather, stocks, ip camera support (and more soon to be released)

This product was created because you can invest a lot of time and money on CQC, Mainlobby, homeseer, but at the end of the day you have a automation system that your always messing around with and is not as stable as an HAI system. Most people, like myself and my clients, are not really interested in messing around with the system once it's done, unless more functionality is needed. We need solutions that people can understand and are easy to use... Myro:Home has passed the "WAF" and is very easy to understand. If you can use an iPhone you can use Myro:Home.

That's why I chose HAI as the initially supported platform. They have a stellar product that can support pretty much anything you throw at it... they just don't have a compelling, easy to use software solution. Anyone I show Myro:Home vs Snap-link too can't believe that snap-link is a "retail" automation application. It doesn't look very sophisticated and cheapens what Automation is about -- easy to use and understand. Also, Myro:Home is much more than a snap-link which makes it even better.

Ok, that is my pitch... you won't hear more from me unless I'm asked :blink:

Cheers!
Danny

You lost me on your pitch. Personally I HATE everything Apple, have no idea how to use an Iphone, don't care to, and don't understand what your point is. What I see in your response is a glorified statement implying that HAI has more & better functionality, yet in your case you need a software wrapper to use it. I would really like to understand why it is "superior" when there seems to be nothing to back this up other than a subjective response. Personally I have found CQC really easy to use. I have owned it for less than a week and have no hardware to implement with it, but have managed to setup most of my screens and am able to control what I need.

I don't mean to rant, but I am thoroughly frustrated with the implications that state that a piece of hardware is better with nothing to substantiate it.

 

[DavidL]

"This product was created because you can invest a lot of time and money on CQC, Mainlobby, homeseer, but at the end of the day you have a automation system that your always messing around with and is not as stable as an HAI system. "

And how is your software any different? I haven't looked deeply at yours, but am not seeing any difference in what the three products you mention and yours, other than that you can do much more with the other three.

And that's why you can spend a "lot of time and money" on them. They do much more.

If you restrict the three to only what HAI provides, then it is easier, and in some cases, not much more money.

I will again caveot the above that I haven't looked deeply at what you are doing with Myro.

 

[royalj7]

You lost me on your pitch. Personally I HATE everything Apple, have no idea how to use an Iphone, don't care to, and don't understand what your point is. What I see in your response is a glorified statement implying that HAI has more & better functionality, yet in your case you need a software wrapper to use it. I would really like to understand why it is "superior" when there seems to be nothing to back this up other than a subjective response. Personally I have found CQC really easy to use. I have owned it for less than a week and have no hardware to implement with it, but have managed to setup most of my screens and am able to control what I need.

I don't mean to rant, but I am thoroughly frustrated with the implications that state that a piece of hardware is better with nothing to substantiate it.

Deephaven,

Been reading your progress and it's understandable you want the most information available to make your choice. But things like which panel is better, or which software frontend is the best are very hard questions to answer with any finality. Steve hit it right on the head, it's like arguing which is better, the mustang or the cammaro. People are going to have various reasons why each is better and almost all of them would be valid. And short of a terrible experience with their chosen product, probably won't change their minds. You're not going to find an unequivocal right answer to these questions, but instead lots of smart, creative guys experiences and opinions. Then you take those, with your research (that probably has your head spinning), shake it up then go with your initial reaction back when you started this whole thing :blink: Anyways, good luck with your HA projects. Keep us updated on what you do and think about starting a Showcase thread once you start.

--Jamie

 

[mavromatis]

You lost me on your pitch. Personally I HATE everything Apple, have no idea how to use an Iphone, don't care to, and don't understand what your point is. What I see in your response is a glorified statement implying that HAI has more & better functionality, yet in your case you need a software wrapper to use it. I would really like to understand why it is "superior" when there seems to be nothing to back this up other than a subjective response. Personally I have found CQC really easy to use. I have owned it for less than a week and have no hardware to implement with it, but have managed to setup most of my screens and am able to control what I need.

I don't mean to rant, but I am thoroughly frustrated with the implications that state that a piece of hardware is better with nothing to substantiate it.

I'm sorry that didn't make sense to you. Let me try to explain it a little differently... you have a instrument cluster in your car. Which is the part that Myro:Home plays in the "automation space". The interface ties into the subsystems (HAI, TED Power Monitor, IP Cameras, and soon to be announced other devices). HAI sells their own panels or you can roll-your-own using products (CQC, MAINLOBBY, HAI Automation Studio, etc), you can even code your own by hand (using SDK or completely from scratch, protocol level, like I did). However, some people prefer not to deal with that -- you don't build your own dashboard when you buy a car do you?

You purchased the car because of a lot of reasons -- I generally prefer "luxury" marks because the fit, finish and attention to detail has been addressed and thought out. I'm talking about from the performance to the little details like fonts used on the dash instruments. If you don't care about those types of details then you can roll-your-own products that utilize wood, marble, starfield, water, xyz themes which is what it sounds like you are doing. This has nothing to do with "superior" or "glorified statements", it has to do with creating a cost effective system that functions properly and is easy to setup and use. If you feel you can achieve this on your own, then awesome, good job! I'm just saying that since you cannot buy a home automation system like you do a car -- completely done. You can at least put together a system that has a good front-end (Myro:Home), solid and a proven automation platform (HAI and partners). I'm not just a front-end wrapper... I'm a dashboard into the control system that also adds value adding cost effective capabilities to the system as well. I have thought about adding simple triggers and such to Myro:Home, however, my philosophy is keep the mission critical things on the controller. A OmniPro II has batter backup so if power fails, etc you are still protected. Any touch panel or computer system will fail or not last as long (even with a UPS). Also, if the computer system fails you lose your control and automation. With HAI you do not. The 8" panels I'll be offering run on XP embedded which is a slimmed down version of XP. They use this OS in more mission critical devices like ATMs, Internet Appliances, Gaming, etc. Even Crestron systems use XPe.

The challenge is that all these come with a price, which could be the reason why you like to roll-your-own. What I have learned from this little venture is that the reason why those things cost more is because A LOT of time and money goes into creating them. The "luxury" marks that I'm talking about are not "status brands" but more about quality and detail which typically turn them into status brands -- but there are some "status brands" that are just plan worthless.

I think your frustration is a combination of things and I'm sorry you have such hate for a product that has sold over a million units. Clearly, they are doing something right since "smart phones" have been around for a long time and are finally now the norm -- I owned one of the first Smart phones from MSFT and made the switch to the iPhone due to the details, quality and performance. Sure, it still doesn't have EVERYTHING I need, but it has 90% of it. Do yourself a favor an try one out at the Apple store... you'll be quite impressed!

Also, keep in mind your automation needs are different than mine, and the next guy. I have every space in and outside my home wired, accessible, monitored, and distributed and needed a way for my wife and family to use it simply. That is why Myro:Home was created. I have installed it in my clients home that are not DIYer's and not tech-savy folk. They also wanted a system that works and had a specific budget to meet.

Cheers!
Danny

 

[Steve]

... and needed a way for my wife and family to use it simply. That is why Myro:Home was created. I have installed it in my clients home that are not DIYer's and not tech-savy folk. They also wanted a system that works and had a specific budget to meet.

I think that pretty much sums it up, the 'niche' is somewhere between a stock HAI touchpanel system and something more powerful like CQC, etc. The unfortunate part is I think the majority of membership here is probably more toward the 'roll your own' but I'm sure there are some that would benefit. Anyway, good luck with it!

 

[mavromatis]

I think that pretty much sums it up, the 'niche' is somewhere between a stock HAI touchpanel system and something more powerful like CQC, etc. The unfortunate part is I think the majority of membership here is probably more toward the 'roll your own' but I'm sure there are some that would benefit. Anyway, good luck with it!

Thanks! I figured as much. Keep on going, no matter what technology you pick, if it works for you then you've made the right decision! In the end, it's our passion that makes it all work.

Cheers!
Danny

 

[Deephaven]

You lost me on your pitch. Personally I HATE everything Apple, have no idea how to use an Iphone, don't care to, and don't understand what your point is. What I see in your response is a glorified statement implying that HAI has more & better functionality, yet in your case you need a software wrapper to use it. I would really like to understand why it is "superior" when there seems to be nothing to back this up other than a subjective response. Personally I have found CQC really easy to use. I have owned it for less than a week and have no hardware to implement with it, but have managed to setup most of my screens and am able to control what I need.

I don't mean to rant, but I am thoroughly frustrated with the implications that state that a piece of hardware is better with nothing to substantiate it.

Deephaven,

Been reading your progress and it's understandable you want the most information available to make your choice. But things like which panel is better, or which software frontend is the best are very hard questions to answer with any finality. Steve hit it right on the head, it's like arguing which is better, the mustang or the cammaro. People are going to have various reasons why each is better and almost all of them would be valid. And short of a terrible experience with their chosen product, probably won't change their minds. You're not going to find an unequivocal right answer to these questions, but instead lots of smart, creative guys experiences and opinions. Then you take those, with your research (that probably has your head spinning), shake it up then go with your initial reaction back when you started this whole thing Anyways, good luck with your HA projects. Keep us updated on what you do and think about starting a Showcase thread once you start.

--Jamie

Jamie,

Thanks for the comments, I don't plan on disappearing and will make a showcase thread. The whole HA automation thing is new to me...from less than a month ago. Before then I thought pretty much that there were X10 plug in modules and crappy remotes. lol

I never asked for a "best" system as that would be personal, what I have been searching for are capability differences that would cause me to lean one way or the other. So far I have found zero for my application, but my fear is that I am unknowingly forgetting a portion of what I might want to do since I don't yet know it is possible. This information though is very hard to search for as you can imagine and I have spent countless hours doing such and will continue to do so :hesaid:

However, some people prefer not to deal with that -- you don't build your own dashboard when you buy a car do you?

I think your frustration is a combination of things and I'm sorry you have such hate for a product that has sold over a million units.

I have actually built my own dashboard before. I am into the DIY not just for the money savings as that I see as a side effect, but for me it is relaxation. I have an extremely stressful job and making things with my hands and designing things I find very relaxing. From furniture, to speakers, to my car and other things in life I regularly prefer to roll my own. I think that is also part of the response you are getting from here as the niche market on this board has a lot of DIY personality. This was my exact draw to CQC. I can set it up to do whatever I want which can include hardware that isn't supported by anything else.

If you are referring to hate for the Omni, I don't at all and if I find a reason to buy one I will instead of the Elk but atm with what features I have been exposed to it adds no functionality for me. If that comment was geared towards my comment on the Apple then most definitely. The same DIY spirit that I show above should make it really obvious why I don't like the Apple and in particular the Ipod. Having more albums than will fit on one doesn't help either.

Sean

edit: to add my name, I don't mean to hide behind my screenname

 

[jharrell]

If you are referring to hate for the Omni, I don't at all and if I find a reason to buy one I will instead of the Elk but atm with what features I have been exposed to it adds no functionality for me. If that comment was geared towards my comment on the Apple then most definitely. The same DIY spirit that I show above should make it really obvious why I don't like the Apple and in particular the Ipod. Having more albums than will fit on one doesn't help either.

What are the capabilities of a Lexus over a Ford so that when you buy them you can run down the feature list a make a decision to buy one based on that alone? A product is not a list of features or capabilities, there are also things such as fit and finish and execution that are hard to quantify in a bullet list and things such as ascetics and style that are subjective. This is the point most Apple haters miss and IMO plays into the ELK vs HAI debate as well although to a lesser degree. Why pay twice as much for a Lexus when you can get a cheaper car with the same features/specs for less?

I actually have and use both an HAI system at home and an ELK M1 at my office and I will tell you that feature wise at this point they are nearly identical but I prefer my HAI but like some things better about the Elk:

First physically the Elk controller itself is sealed in a plastic shell with those nice little green removable connectors to hookup the zones, the Omni however is an exposed circuit board with screw down terminals right on the board, I definitely felt more worried damaging the controller setting up the Omni than the Elk. Elk is better here.

Second the Elk keypads are not as nice as the Omni's IMO, but the Elk's do have function buttons that are programmable and can be lit, there is also a zone hookup on the Elk keypad itself for door strike control or whatever,but in the end I just like the fit and finish better of the HAI keypad, and that in general is true for all of the HAI products I have used. And my HAI keypad just feels snappier when I use it, maybe its the menu layout, or the bus/controller speed not real sure, it's very slight but noticeable to me.

Third the Elk has a better raw protocol that is used over serial or ethernet, HAI has very similar but different protocols over each (Serial doesn't support notifications for some reason), and they are not as easy to use as the Elk, but HAI provides a fully functional .Net library to access their controller, so you don't have to deal with the raw protocol in that case. From a technical standpoint I say Elk is better here, but you do have to buy their ethernet add-on where as the Omni it's built in, and I have had ELk's ethernet expander lockup twice on me now, the panel was fine but the expander just wasn't there and I had to power cycle it, nothing like that has ever occurred with the HAI.

Those are all the things I can bullet out off the top of my head, HAI also makes their own thermostats and UPB hardware and multi-zone audio all having excellent fit and finish again and are very well integrated with no issues and simple setup. I will say the differences are slight, but if I had to do it again I would probably choose HAI at my office as well though.

I am sure you would be happy with both, I think a UL listed fire/burglary/automation system is key to any solid home automation setup, and these two are it.

On a side note I am not sure why you dislike Apple on a DIY level as a Windows programmer by day I can tell you programming for the Mac or iPhone is very DIY friendly, they give away their FULL development IDE away for free and programming in objective-c using the cocoa frameworks very elegant and much of the platform is shared between a Mac and an iPhone, sharing code between the two is very common. But this is a whole separate topic.

 

[Deephaven]

I'd never own a Lexus, but your point was duly taken. Fit and finish is important to me and it isn't just features that cause me to choose which car to buy...although I will add that they are fundamentally what I use to choose but I am a horsepower nut so that isn't probably fair.

I love your comments, they definitely bring some clarity to the situation. Thank you.

I am not a programmer and really hate the fact that you pay so much extra for an Apple to be forced to have to buy their accessories. Function/dollar is lacking and the lack of choices for controls is terrible. Itunes sickens me and fundamentally I use my computer for the internet and for playing music. The internet is easy, but the music interface on the Apple leaves a ton to be desired IMO.

 

[ano]

I'd never own a Lexus, but your point was duly taken. Fit and finish is important to me and it isn't just features that cause me to choose which car to buy...although I will add that they are fundamentally what I use to choose but I am a horsepower nut so that isn't probably fair.

I love your comments, they definitely bring some clarity to the situation. Thank you.

I am not a programmer and really hate the fact that you pay so much extra for an Apple to be forced to have to buy their accessories. Function/dollar is lacking and the lack of choices for controls is terrible. Itunes sickens me and fundamentally I use my computer for the internet and for playing music. The internet is easy, but the music interface on the Apple leaves a ton to be desired IMO.

Wow, I never knew Apple made home automation products. I got to check this out. Forget HAI or ELK, I'm getting the iControl.

 

[jharrell]

Wow, I never knew Apple made home automation products. I got to check this out. Forget HAI or ELK, I'm getting the iControl.

I know that since getting my iPhone I barely use my keypad for my Omni anymore and have no desire to get an expensive permanent touch screen.

No matter where I am I can pull out my iPhone and within a few seconds be connected to my panel using the free @Home app, it's actually faster to use my iPhone than get up and go to the panel. My wife loves being able to just carry here iPhone on walks and get in to the house through the garage or arm and disarm from the car.

On top of that in the last few weeks Pentair released an iPhone app for controlling my Intellitouch pool automation system, I was going to try and use a serial adapter to integrate my Omni with the Intellitouch, but with the iPhone app why bother, I'll probably just get a waterproof case for my old 2g iPhone and use it as a poolside remote instead of spending $1500 for Pentairs waterproof remote.

Remember the iPod touch is $230 and you have a nice reliable Wifi touchscreen for your house with good battery life and tons of accessories.

 

[mavromatis]

Wow, I never knew Apple made home automation products. I got to check this out. Forget HAI or ELK, I'm getting the iControl.

I know that since getting my iPhone I barely use my keypad for my Omni anymore and have no desire to get an expensive permanent touch screen.

No matter where I am I can pull out my iPhone and within a few seconds be connected to my panel using the free @Home app, it's actually faster to use my iPhone than get up and go to the panel. My wife loves being able to just carry here iPhone on walks and get in to the house through the garage or arm and disarm from the car.

On top of that in the last few weeks Pentair released an iPhone app for controlling my Intellitouch pool automation system, I was going to try and use a serial adapter to integrate my Omni with the Intellitouch, but with the iPhone app why bother, I'll probably just get a waterproof case for my old 2g iPhone and use it as a poolside remote instead of spending $1500 for Pentairs waterproof remote.

Remember the iPod touch is $230 and you have a nice reliable Wifi touchscreen for your house with good battery life and tons of accessories.

IMHO, The @Home application is not production ready. It has a lot of UX issues and bugs and does not update in realtime on screens, you need to go back and forth for it to update status, etc -- at least on the latest version running on my iPhone. What is the status of @Home? Is it being updated? So, I wouldn't really say it's a replacement for a permanent touch panel. However, it's a great ancillary panel. I have a new version in the labs of Myro:Home which has a built in server that you will be able to use a mobile or remote system to control... focus will also be on the UX to give a consistent look and feel. Native iPhone app that work with Myro:Home will be released in a few months.

Cheers!
Danny

 

[ano]

IMHO, The @Home application is not production ready. It has a lot of UX issues and bugs and does not update in realtime on screens, you need to go back and forth for it to update status, etc -- at least on the latest version running on my iPhone. What is the status of @Home? Is it being updated? So, I wouldn't really say it's a replacement for a permanent touch panel. However, it's a great ancillary panel. I have a new version in the labs of Myro:Home which has a built in server that you will be able to use a mobile or remote system to control... focus will also be on the UX to give a consistent look and feel. Native iPhone app that work with Myro:Home will be released in a few months.

Cheers!
Danny

Yes, it is a shame that HAI couldn't put together and sell a simple app like the @Home app. They could even sell it for $19.99 The @Home app is certainly a good first attempt, but I don't think the author has spent much time supporting it. (I've never seen an update to @Home.) HAI competes with it by selling a $300 app. that requires a WHS. I'm sure some professional installers will charge their customers $600 for this and they will pay it, but it's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

Both HAI and ELK fall flat on their faces when it comes to good software solutions for accessing their systems. Danny have you thought about Myro:OnTheRoad?

 

[jharrell]

IMHO, The @Home application is not production ready. It has a lot of UX issues and bugs and does not update in realtime on screens, you need to go back and forth for it to update status, etc -- at least on the latest version running on my iPhone. What is the status of @Home? Is it being updated? So, I wouldn't really say it's a replacement for a permanent touch panel. However, it's a great ancillary panel. I have a new version in the labs of Myro:Home which has a built in server that you will be able to use a mobile or remote system to control... focus will also be on the UX to give a consistent look and feel. Native iPhone app that work with Myro:Home will be released in a few months.

Cheers!
Danny

I have very few issues with @Home, it seemed flaky at first, but I found my wireless router was more of the problem and have since resolved that. I agree the UI could use improvement and it's missing some features (outside temp, and event list), but for free I'm not complaining and it's ready for prime time enough that the WAF factor is high with it, but she and I just use it for the daily stuff, arm disarm, garage, lights.

It's all about having a remote for your home in your pocket wherever you are that makes this work so well. I really wanted to do this with my Windows mobile phones and even had a Dell Axim for a in house remote, but battery life with WiFi was always horrible with these devices, plus they where too sluggish and my Wife would never use one.

Dan is working on a new version of @Home but he's been busy on his Java library for the Omni instead, HAI really should thank or even pay Dan for @Home, maybe even buy the rights and improve it and charge for it (not $300 though).

 

[mavromatis]

Both HAI and ELK fall flat on their faces when it comes to good software solutions for accessing their systems. Danny have you thought about Myro:OnTheRoad?

I agree. That's why I created my own software solution for sale. I think pricing is the biggest challenge. You'll never be able to satisfy everyone -- some people think things are overpriced, while others respect the value and see the worth -- as we are clearing seeing on this thread -- that's business. Hopefully, you have more of the later to grow a small business and execute on the full vision. Some people have no problem dropping $300 on a few switches but think $500 for control software is expensive. People don't realize how much time and money goes into developing reliable products and there is no one standard and not many homes that are automated to get any economies of scale. I think @Home is great for free, however, I think people would judge it differently if it were for sale.

I will be offering an iPhone and mobile control version, but it will only work with Myro:Home acting as the server (version 1.1.0 will have this framework). The iPhone application will be sold for a nominal fee. There is no point offering a complete application (meaning direct communication like @Home) for the iPhone since people won't want to pay for it and it doesn't make sense to communicate with the panel and all the overhead associated with it -- as we see what the limitations are with @Home. Having a server to optimize the requests will make a better and more responsive application.

Dan is working on a new version of @Home but he's been busy on his Java library for the Omni instead, HAI really should thank or even pay Dan for @Home, maybe even buy the rights and improve it and charge for it (not $300 though).

HAI could do this since they can subsidize the development costs with the sale of panels -- the more features they add the more reasons someone will choose over say an ELK. However, someone like me charging $20 for an iPhone application that maybe 1000 people would buy would only earn $20,000.00 (also remove the 30% fee Apple takes and that leaves $16k). That is nothing to run and support a business, let alone support the customer and invest in future versions. Again, there is no economies of scale here so this will always be someone's pet project that doesn't get much attention. Production software requires a lot of R&D, hardware to test with and QA to make it into peoples homes, I cannot put the @Home software in a clients home because it still has its quirks and is not backed and supported by a company.

Cheers,
Danny