Elk M1Gold retrofit setup questions.

[Del91574]

I agree to a point regarding EOLR's. Most residential systems out there don't have them installed. Knowing the entire picture, I can go both ways as far as their installation and certain circumstances where the end result doesn't justify the means.

I install them in the field 99% of the time, although their worth on a series, homerun circuit is negligable. I do, however install them on single device zones. Powered devices, I tend to install and wire as a 3 wire circuit. I believe they're 100% necessary in a case where the cabling is subject to physical damage (like an unfinished garage) and unavoidable in some circumstances.

In the case of the M1 specifically, it allows me (as a dealer) to use RP to dial into a system and get an idea of what's going on at my accounts for service purposes.

IMHO, I wouldn't pull a contact to install an EOLR on a conversion, however a sheetrock screw typically works well, sacrificing the contact. I would, however, take a baseline resistance of the loops and record such for future usage in troubleshooting.

 

[gatchel]

I guess this is where I'll have to agree to disagree with a few comments.

EOLR's have value regardless of whether or not you are residential or commercial, or live in a mansion or in a ghetto. They were designed for a reason which I won't get into here, do a search if you want to know the reasons or check out the links in post #6.They are called End Of Line Resistors because they belong at the END OF THE LINE, not in the panel.

The reason that most residential installations have them installed at the panel or not at all is because most residential alarm companies are there to get revenue from monitoring, that's it. How else would you get a free alarm system from the big "3 Letter" companies and others. It takes less time to install and possibly troubleshoot.

The other reason is that there are a lot of lazy installers out there that are trunk slammers and/or hacks. This doesn't include every company as there are still a few good people out there.

This is like saying that a 4 amp hour battery will be fine when your load calcs call for a 7 amp hour or larger battery. Sure it's 12 volts right...

Or hey, while you at it, you can leave out that power supervision relay on your 4 wire fire zone too. The sensors will work with out it, right? (Being a smartass of course, never leave out the fire power supervision relay)

You have to decide what works for you.

If you are incapable of wiring a device neatly with an EOL then run a 4 (or 6) conductor cable and THEN put the resistor back at the panel on the extra pair. (Obviously this can not be done on a retrofit)

The only time I would say that EOLR's are not needed, is for a non critical or home automation status input. I still use EOLR's to anyway to keep things consistent.


If you are not going to take the steps to install an alarm system as designed and to code, then why bother spending the money at all.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I guess this is where I'll have to agree to disagree with a few comments.

EOLR's have value regardless of whether or not you are residential or commercial, or live in a mansion or in a ghetto. They were designed for a reason which I won't get into here, do a search if you want to know the reasons or check out the links in post #6.They are called End Of Line Resistors because they belong at the END OF THE LINE, not in the panel.

The reason that most residential installations have them installed at the panel or not at all is because most residential alarm companies are there to get revenue from monitoring, that's it. How else would you get a free alarm system from the big "3 Letter" companies and others. It takes less time to install and possibly troubleshoot.

The other reason is that there are a lot of lazy installers out there that are trunk slammers and/or hacks. This doesn't include every company as there are still a few good people out there.

This is like saying that a 4 amp hour battery will be fine when your load calcs call for a 7 amp hour or larger battery. Sure it's 12 volts right...

Or hey, while you at it, you can leave out that power supervision relay on your 4 wire fire zone too. The sensors will work with out it, right? (Being a smartass of course, never leave out the fire power supervision relay)

You have to decide what works for you.

If you are incapable of wiring a device neatly with an EOL then run a 4 (or 6) conductor cable and THEN put the resistor back at the panel on the extra pair. (Obviously this can not be done on a retrofit)

The only time I would say that EOLR's are not needed, is for a non critical or home automation status input. I still use EOLR's to anyway to keep things consistent.


If you are not going to take the steps to install an alarm system as designed and to code, then why bother spending the money at all.

So what you are saying is the OP should rip out perfectly working sensors at the risk of damaging wiring behind the window framework and drywall, install a new sensor as he will more than likely damage the existing one when removing it, install an EOL resistor at the end, cram that in to a hole with who knows how much clearance is behind it, JUST to have the luxury of knowing that IF he drives a nail in the existing wiring sometime in the future he will know it, or thwart someone who will want to break into his home bad enough to chisel through an outside wall and carefully strip through the sensor wiring insulation so he can short it out to gain entry into the home without tripping the alarm.

I say that as long as he performs a leakage and continuity resistance test as I described in my How To (referenced above) and tests each sensor, he is good to go.

Of course I'm not a professional installer, but I have performed enough electronics work to know the hassle factor involved here, and it just doesn't seem worth it for the minimal benefits that would be received.

 

[gatchel]

I guess the OP will have to weigh the options. I always rip out sensors and replace the EOLR or properly install the new value EOLR. I think that if the OP is going to live there for any amount of time that is not temporary then it would be nice to know that the retrofit is done to the manufacturers spec. Just trying to point out the other side of the fence. The majority of my work is commercial. When residential work comes along we explain to them why we are more expensive than the others and why we do it right and let the customer make the decision. Just my $0.02. That's all. Nothing personal to anyone.

BSR, Your idea is a good one and definitely a viable option.

 

[morreale]

keep in mind my home is all brick from the outside and i did all the wiring during the build. looks like i have some decisions to make.

 

[Linwood]

In the FWIW department, there are a number of places that sell contacts with EOL resistors (of various flavors) built in, so if you find one of the same size and shape, you may be able to just replace the contact without trying to figure out how to fit a resistor in.

Like smokes with EOL Relay built in, I'm surprised they are not in more widespread use. Installers could add those without any extra effort, and very miniscule extra cost (probably none if they were more widely used).

 

[Del91574]

In the FWIW department, there are a number of places that sell contacts with EOL resistors (of various flavors) built in, so if you find one of the same size and shape, you may be able to just replace the contact without trying to figure out how to fit a resistor in.
Like smokes with EOL Relay built in, I'm surprised they are not in more widespread use. Installers could add those without any extra effort, and very miniscule extra cost (probably none if they were more widely used).

The problem as I see it is this: I work on my own installs, typically either Honeywell, HAI or Elk products, however we have every other manufacturer's panels out there as well. How many ohm value contacts are going to be maintained in stock by a tech to cover every size and variety that exist? As far as servicing a system, unfortunately (barring accessable EOLR's) you're painting yourself into a corner. Many times after an initial install, when a system is added on to or modified, you're going to be limited if you can't expand the panel or the end user doesn't see the value of spending $X for an expander, in addition to the new devices (contacts, PIR's, etc.) that are being installed if you're forced to start combining zones. I only know of 2 manufacturers that offer resistor contacts, and in limited styles, with the majority being limited to 1/8 watt resistors. The panels I install have 1/4 watt as their requirement. I don't want to have to replace contacts on a panel because a resistor burnt out (the Elk runs high loop voltages compared to others).

I have a similar view with the 4 wire detectors that have a supervision relay built in. Stocking issue again, same goes with distribution networks. Same goes with add/moves, you're stuck relocating an old device if the unit is under 10 years old.

On a Friday afternoon before a long weekend where the nearest distributor is an hour away and you need a replacement contact/detector because they're leaving on vacation the next morning, and they didn't call in a trouble/open zone for days or they couldn't make time to have a service call for whatever reason....I know I wouldn't want a device that I couldn't replace right then/there.

Gatchel summed up most of the other points I stated, however I still don't see a value of having multiple home runs with an EOLR installed on one pair and call it a supervised circuit. False sense of security, though it complies with the spec. If EOLR supervision is truly desired on a series circuit, unfortunately, the only way to really do it is to wire it as a continous loop. Even using multiple conductors to feed the EOLR back to the panel still doesn't completely meet the requirement, since a pair can still be shorted, negating the supervision.

There's pros and cons of all the methods, and in a conversion, the determination would need to be made if the destruction and results justify the benefits, and IMHO, with multiple home runs in series, with the exception of the one pair with the EOLR, there really isn't supervision on the other pairs in that example, so I fail to see the value in the material and labor to install an EOLR on that one contact in a multi-homerun series loop to supervise that one pair.

 

[tmbrown97]

I hate to sound like a jerk here, but gatchel's comments seem very naive or totally lacking in the ability to see the big picture. Sure, the EOLR's are great if you design them in during initial build, but IMHO, it'd be flat out asinine to pull out working contacts to add the EOLR. Spec? The panel works either way; it's completely within spec to not have an EOLR, and people who look at the big picture can realize that the added value isn't all that great. There's no way pulling out working sensors and screwing with the wiring would make sense.

 

[gatchel]

I hate to sound like a jerk here

Too late...just kidding. (Seriously)

I hear you and fully understand your point. My point is that people too often decide that their design is better than the manufacturers. If the OP wants to do without the EOLR's in the proper location than that is his choice. Will is work? Yes it will. Is it the way I would do it? No it's not.

Pulling out a sensor usually isn't that bad if they were installed with serviceability in mind. Minimally a coat of touchup paint will be needed if they were painted over. If you use a chisel to get them out then you are going to destroy the contacts. For me, carefully pulling trim and minor touch-ups are acceptable. Once again the OP will have to decide what is good...

Maybe try one contact and make a decision from there instead of just deciding "It will be too hard" from the start without even trying one device.

 

[tmbrown97]

I personally just make it a habit to pay attention to the system when the windows are opened up, and do the occasional test with voice announcements on. Yesterday in fact, preparing to leave the house, I had 17 zones violated - so as we closed each window I made sure each one was reading, and that it was only 17, and not more, zones open.

I also had to remove one of my door sensors yesterday because it was "sticking" and it broke in the process; so I'm replacing it today... I'm not removing any more unless I absolutely have to!