New Home Security and Automation Design (Design the perfect system)

[drvnbysound]

Thank you all for the comments and, DELInstallations, that is a very good point about the concern and lack of ability to change with addressible panels.
 
Sog, my current plan (although this could change as we aren't moving until 18 months from now) is to use Elk and the ISY994i.
 
Since I already have both systems installed on my current house and they are working well with few issues (along with the fact that I know how to program them etc), I think i will stick with them. I would love to see Elk come out with an upgrade to the M1 with more functionality but I am doubtful this will happen. 
 
If you don't already have an Elk and ISY, here are some of the features I like/dislike.
Like:
- Elk seems to be very robust and once setup, is easy to maintain.
- I have few problems with the Elk and the only real issue I have had was that I needed to replace the backup battery after 3 years
- With the ISY, I have recently upgraded to the isy994 from the isy99 and since upgrading, have had no issues at all. Linking with devices and now even passing along the Elk events via the ISY emailing system works perfectly.
 
I think when we build the new house, we will now run the home-runs for each room (connecting windows for an entire room as 1 zone) and have very few (if any) wireless devices. As others on this board have said, wire is cheap and the wired contacts are also very cheap. 

 
I wouldn't consider that an issue... the battery itself states, "Replace after 3-5 years"

 

[dgage]

Thank you all for the comments and, DELInstallations, that is a very good point about the concern and lack of ability to change with addressible panels.
 
Sog, my current plan (although this could change as we aren't moving until 18 months from now) is to use Elk and the ISY994i.
 
Since I already have both systems installed on my current house and they are working well with few issues (along with the fact that I know how to program them etc), I think i will stick with them. I would love to see Elk come out with an upgrade to the M1 with more functionality but I am doubtful this will happen. 
 
If you don't already have an Elk and ISY, here are some of the features I like/dislike.
Like:
- Elk seems to be very robust and once setup, is easy to maintain.
- I have few problems with the Elk and the only real issue I have had was that I needed to replace the backup battery after 3 years
- With the ISY, I have recently upgraded to the isy994 from the isy99 and since upgrading, have had no issues at all. Linking with devices and now even passing along the Elk events via the ISY emailing system works perfectly.
 
I think when we build the new house, we will now run the home-runs for each room (connecting windows for an entire room as 1 zone) and have very few (if any) wireless devices. As others on this board have said, wire is cheap and the wired contacts are also very cheap. 

I can't find it now but I think within the last week someone mentioned the ISY994 has run out of memory for new Insteon devices. Maybe someone else has more accurate or official info they could point to. Just putting that out there in case it affects future performance/growth of the ISY.

 

[az1324]

That is isy99 not isy994

 

[dgage]

That is isy99 not isy994

Thanks for straightening me out with the correct info. I'm not personally interested but just wondering what the memory differences are. I couldn't find a spec for the ISY99i vs ISY994i related to memory. I see the Pro vs Non-Pro version difference but that is the same across both device versions. Just hoping the same memory limitation won't befall the ISY994 anytime soon.

 

[bbrendon]

OK. Let's say I ran home runs for all wires (or at least zones) what system combination would you use? HAI, Elk, ISY, DSC, Honeywell? Again, design the dream system.

Personally I prefer a mostly software based system. I want the fancy features in the software layer, not the hardware (panel layer). I'd go with a DSC (because its very basic, easy, and cheap) and add on the powerful software piece like CQC or OpenHAB. 

 

[Del91574]

Unfortunately, the cheaper hardware usually has a very limited interface to 3rd party products for the purpose of integration. Don't get me started on DSC/Tyco build quality.....I deal with their products from the lowly DSC all the way up to their golden flagship of Software House and AD. Nothing like a $5K (dealer cost) panel being fubar less than a week out of the box.
 
You need a good build quality on the hardware first and foremost. Follow that with enough core features or expansion to do 90% of what you really want to do, then use the 3rd party to do the heavy lifting.

 

[bbrendon]

I guess I have a differing opinion. I use the DSC for just sensors. All of the fun is in CQC. This way I get the most flexibility for the intelligence.

Also, you can't beat the price. AND I can do more and smarter than any panel.

If the DSC were to ever die, it's not much expense to replace the board.

 

[dgage]

I guess I have a differing opinion. I use the DSC for just sensors. All of the fun is in CQC. This way I get the most flexibility for the intelligence.

Also, you can't beat the price. AND I can do more and smarter than any panel.

If the DSC were to ever die, it's not much expense to replace the board.

Thanks for the point of view. I'm torn as I see your point but certain things like water leak monitoring and control would work well in something like an Elk and I'm not sure I could do in a DSC and I wouldn't trust CQC to handle mission critical stuff like that.

What model DSC are you using?

 

[pete_c]

Very nice bbrendon.  Yup relating to DSC just for sensors is neat o. 
 
That said many folks also just utilize A to D converters or Raspberry pi's for their sensors relating to automation.
 
I wouldn't do any life and safety things though with a DIY software connection to a DSC or an A to D converter.  That is me I guess.
 
It's a delineated black and white concern with no grey areas; unless you consider life and safety a non issue and put much faith into the software.
 
That said in the last 30 days here helping a peer with utilizing a DSC panel; I have witnessed the panel quit working twice due to some weird hardware glitches (well lightning) taking down most of the automation utilized (plus security).  Yeah it was inexpensive to fix.  My two HAI OPII panels have not had any lightning issues in over 10 years.  Maybe its me though.
 
Yeah here utilize hardware for primarily the security pieces and software to add a bit more automation stuff. 
 
IE: basics are lighting, sound and HVAC utilizing X10, UPB and ZWave.  The heartbeat of the home is taken care of just fine.
 
I use software automation for stuff / logic beyond the basics of a simple scheduled set of events.
 
Over the years (well since the late 70's) I have enough of my share of software glitches running on hardware (and failures) that always reared their ugly head at the most inopportune times.  Some preventable and many not. 
 
Dumb stuff like a CPU, PS, Fan failures the day before a flight departure for vacation type stuff. 
 
Today with passive cooling, micro redundant power supplies and other hardware resilience mostly those issues are gone.
 
That said a software hiccup can still take down the system; therefore it will never manage security; just the way it is. 
 
I do push on the software today with some 20 plus pieces of hardware connected to the automation software "box". 
 
It works; but at times it will hiccup; but never really does anything to the base security / automation firmware running on the hardware panel.

 

[bbrendon]

One point I'll make is that I try to be as lazy as possible thus I try to make my system as smart as possible. That means I don't touch anything. No NFC tags, no keys. All I'm willing to do is turn the door knob. (I would eliminate that but I have to stop the cash flow somewhere. Heh)
 
dgage-
 
Yes, I can see your point on trusting the software. There is a trade off and my trust level for software I think is more agressive than most people. I think thats mostly because I'm in IT and in addition we use software at work to manage the monitoring/alerting for critical environmental things (more critical than anything in a house). So I think that has also increased my comfort level.
 
I'm using a DSC (wait, let me look it up), Power 1832.
 
pete_c-
 
Yea, my original idea was to use the DSC as an alarm as well, but I got so excited with the "automation" part, I never went back to automating the alarm.
 
To avoid all of these hardware issues, I run my software in the cloud. No power, no maintenance.  (I can see your objections and ears perking from here heh)
 
I definately see the benefits of both ways. I would agree, your system in the event of a major problem (power, weather, whatever) would hold up better. I'm okay with the possiblity of having to revert to the stone ages once a year.

 

[dgage]

To avoid all of these hardware issues, I run my software in the cloud. No power, no maintenance.  (I can see your objections and ears perking from here heh).

"Nobody understands the cloud. It's a ?&$!-ing mystery!"

Wow...tell us more. Who are you using to host your VM? How do you have the VM connected into your home network.

By the way, I run CQC on WHS 2008 (v.1) and it has been pretty solid but every few months the wife says the remotes (Pico) no longer control the lights and I have to go in and kickstart the RadioRa2 driver in CQC. Not sure what's causing that but it hasn't happened enough for me to worry about it. WHS 2008 itself has been rock solid.

 

[pete_c]

Just a quickie snapshot of an overview transport which typically is known but not seen automation.  Keeping it simple to two methodologies.
 
1 - The device whether hardware or software in your home connects to the endpoints or integrated with the "endpoints".  Endpoints referring to those digital to analog devices.  IE:A PIM, a 1-wire do what, et al.
 
in the House we have:
 
Automation device (endpoint)== Software or Hardware "box" = = > console(s)
 
Personally I allow and control the external (outside of the house console to the automation device in the house) access to an automation software or hardware controller inside of the home via a set of rules which exist on a firewall under my control. 
 
 
2 - An automation endpoint managed by the cloud with console access to the cloud. 
 
outside of the House we have:
 
IE: the transport would be:  House PIM = = > "cloud" = = > access to cloud application via consoles (in house or out of house).
 
 
 
#1 is as easy as #2.  
 
#2 is easier for those who want automation and want it to be plug n play (lets call it the "easy button").
 
It's a "win win" for those companies that want a continuous revenue stream based on monthly "rental" fees of the "cloud" application. 
 
It is also a "win win" for those companies that provide the internet connection; well unless its free. 
 
It does typically provide a "remote" controller via telco provider whatever that company may be (another monthly revue stream).
 
The user is happy because his / her automation remote control is in the palm of his / her hands 24/7 365 days out of the year no matter what OS is being utilized on the hand held portable little computer.
 
I do see the positive of the use of current technology to ease the passage into a DIY home automation; why not take advantage of it? 
 
On the other hand; maybe cuz I am old; I like my own control of my own automation in my own home; selfish I do not want to share my automation to the internet; but that is me. 

 

[bbrendon]

I run CQC in a VM cluster at work. It would work the same if I ran it at AWS or Azure. I have a bridged VPN so it works exactly as it would if it was in the house.
 
The only tricky part is you have to do everything over ethernet and you have to respect the bandwidth limits. When I started, I made sure to make all my stuff ethernet friendly so I didn't have to rely on USB/Serial/etc all at one location in the house (where the master computer was). So when the computer died, I decided I didn't want the computer any more and I'd try a cloud version.
 
I actually just wrote a blog posting about it last week.
http://blog.brendon.com/general/home-automation-in-the-cloud/
 
Along the lines of pete's posting, I think a cloud solution from Nest or Dropcam or whatever is quite different than running your own. Typically cloud based home automation is very limiting and you need something like IFTTT or an API that works with something like CQC to make it work together. If you're using IFTTT then you'rve very limited on things you can do.

 

[Dean Roddey]

"Nobody understands the cloud. It's a ?&$!-ing mystery!"

Wow...tell us more. Who are you using to host your VM? How do you have the VM connected into your home network.

By the way, I run CQC on WHS 2008 (v.1) and it has been pretty solid but every few months the wife says the remotes (Pico) no longer control the lights and I have to go in and kickstart the RadioRa2 driver in CQC. Not sure what's causing that but it hasn't happened enough for me to worry about it. WHS 2008 itself has been rock solid.

 
You have to tell me about these things. I have not reason to look into it if I don't know it's happening. If you can get it into that state, let me know and we can figure out what's going on.

 

[dgage]

Dean, originally I brought it up and it was somewhat dismissed because I was running in a VM. I switched to my WHS 2008 server (no longer used by anything but CQC) and it still dropped about once a month or so. I mentioned it and you did something to the RadioRa2 driver and it stopped happening except once every 4 months or so. Since I'm a consultant working out of town, this pretty much doesn't happen except when I'm out of town and my wife tells me on the phone late at night that the remotes aren't working again. I just go in and recycle the RadioRa2 driver and it starts working again. I think it might be related to extended power outages and the RadioRa2 controller going offline for an extended period. But since it happens so rarely and I'm often not home, I haven't had much opportunity to identify a pattern to give you any pointers on where to look.