that's helpful. Thanks. And just as a clarification, when I said EOLR I meant end-of-line-relay, which i do indeed have configured for power supervision on each zone (i realize that's a confusing acronym, as sometimes the "R" is for resistor, but in this case, I meant relay. Each of the smokes is a GE 541NCXE, with a built in relay). Knock on wood, no problems so far after 4 years of operation, but I understand your warnings. Thanks again for explaining
Powering smokes just outside can?
- Thread starter IVB
- Start date
IVB said:
DEL gave a nice explanation of the problems created by multiple zones for smoke detectors in this thread.
IVB
Senior Member
New thought: A new 2 wire smoke is only $33. ( http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Home/Smoke-Heat-Sensors/SS-2WT-B ) Given that I have a 4 wire fire retardant homerun, what if I buy 7 2 wire smokes and *then* daisy-chain in a junction box right above the elk? I have the ability to go into the attic and daisy-chain the smokes, but if I can spend $200 and *not* have to do that, that would be great. My backlog of security & home rewiring work is already huge as i'm cleaning up 9 years of organic unmanaged growth, i'm looking for ways to cut down time requirements as much as possible.
EDIT: That would be a TON of extra wire though, each homerun is probably 50 feet long or so. Some smokes are only 10-15 feet from each other.
EDIT: That would be a TON of extra wire though, each homerun is probably 50 feet long or so. Some smokes are only 10-15 feet from each other.
You'd also need to consider whether or not sounders in the smokes and a tandem ring is desirable or not in your application.
It's a perfect opportunity to put a RRS and 2WMOD in as well and gain some additional functionality.
Not saying you can't put a 4 wire unit out there, but there's a lot of caveats of doing such and the majority are what occurs on a reset, the method of reset and if there's ancillary hardware involved.
The right way to do it is, unfortunately, put a relay on each smoke and then perform the reset using that otherwise the issues occur.
It's a perfect opportunity to put a RRS and 2WMOD in as well and gain some additional functionality.
Not saying you can't put a 4 wire unit out there, but there's a lot of caveats of doing such and the majority are what occurs on a reset, the method of reset and if there's ancillary hardware involved.
The right way to do it is, unfortunately, put a relay on each smoke and then perform the reset using that otherwise the issues occur.
IVB
Senior Member
As always, thanks for your time educating me, greatly appreciated.DELInstallations said:
How big are those relays? Wondering if I can cut a small hole in the ceiling which would be covered by the smoke or if I need to go into the attic.
Also agreed on the sounders, I saw a $50 2 wire unit that had that on Automated Outlet. On my phone so I don't have the part number, but that sounds like a good idea.
Any thoughts on the wirelength and whether I could Daisy chain in a junction box near the elk or if I need to climb through the blow in insulation and rerun the wires?
System Sensor's model EOLR-1 isIVB said:
0.91′′H x 1.65′′W x 1.22′′D
However if you want to get fancy and if you haven't yet bought your 4-wire smokes, you could buy ones with built in relays. There are a few out there. I have GE model 541NCXE, which have built in supervision relays. All that said, I did this before I was aware of the concerns raised by DEL. Though I haven't personally experienced those problems, it seems like something you ought to weigh.
I would strongly recommend against smokes with built in supervisory relays. Going to be a source of woe in the long run.
You can go up to a 3 1/2" hole using a hole saw and a retrofit box easily and 99% of the detectors will cover any hole and provide a location for an external relay.
The M1 will technically ignore any alarm/trouble on any zone listed as fire for 5 seconds upon a reset, however most smokes take anywhere from 15-90 seconds to power up and stabilize. Nature of the beast. Even worse if you have a reversing relay for tandem ring.
Until Elk makes their fire zone and device offering more robust, I've gone the route of putting either a MS25 or a 9050 in and then interface with the M1 from there. Far better solution than multiple fire zones, especially with 4 wire units. Simplifies wiring and allows a lot more in the way of options. Not for everyone out there, but it solves a ton of issues and works far better than multiple analog zones.
IMHO, really, until you're up well past 8 or more smokes, the ROI on knowing which detector went into alarm on a keypad vs. everyone getting out and then finding out which one went into alarm via the LED (of course, we don't have wiring issues LOL) is not a huge deal. If I was concerned for all of that, putting in a dedicated panel and interfaced properly is a better solution and more compliant....I can have shutdown of the furnace/water heater, disconnect XYZ and have rated relays where doing such on an M1 is going to be far more difficult and require a lot more in compliant parts.
You can go up to a 3 1/2" hole using a hole saw and a retrofit box easily and 99% of the detectors will cover any hole and provide a location for an external relay.
The M1 will technically ignore any alarm/trouble on any zone listed as fire for 5 seconds upon a reset, however most smokes take anywhere from 15-90 seconds to power up and stabilize. Nature of the beast. Even worse if you have a reversing relay for tandem ring.
Until Elk makes their fire zone and device offering more robust, I've gone the route of putting either a MS25 or a 9050 in and then interface with the M1 from there. Far better solution than multiple fire zones, especially with 4 wire units. Simplifies wiring and allows a lot more in the way of options. Not for everyone out there, but it solves a ton of issues and works far better than multiple analog zones.
IMHO, really, until you're up well past 8 or more smokes, the ROI on knowing which detector went into alarm on a keypad vs. everyone getting out and then finding out which one went into alarm via the LED (of course, we don't have wiring issues LOL) is not a huge deal. If I was concerned for all of that, putting in a dedicated panel and interfaced properly is a better solution and more compliant....I can have shutdown of the furnace/water heater, disconnect XYZ and have rated relays where doing such on an M1 is going to be far more difficult and require a lot more in compliant parts.
I'd suggest the 2WMOD as well. Offers a lot of bang for the buck.
There's a few threads out there with the installation details on the M1 and what is needed to suppress the signals upon reversing and what's involved. Same goes for white papers on the system sensor site.
If you already ran 18/4, no additional cabling is required at the detectors, you just feed in/out and to the next branch of the loop.
There's a few threads out there with the installation details on the M1 and what is needed to suppress the signals upon reversing and what's involved. Same goes for white papers on the system sensor site.
If you already ran 18/4, no additional cabling is required at the detectors, you just feed in/out and to the next branch of the loop.
