Total Home Surge Protector
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
Steve
Senior Member
If you look at Pic 1 you will see a green ground wire coming from the conduit top center along with the 2 120V legs and neutral coming from the meter. That ground wire is ultimately connected to the ground rod which is buried below the meter probably around 25 feet from the main panel. So, The ground bar in the panel should be connected to the ground rod and the Surge device is also connected to the same ground bar. I don't know how to make that any better short of a direct connection to the ground rod without any cross connects or anything which would be very difficult.
hult
Active Member
Hi Steve, PeteC and Neurorad,
As of this afternoon, one could buy three, 8-ft copper-clad ground rods, three clamps, and 25 ft 6AWG bare copper wire at my local Lowes for $75. A big concrete drill can be rented for an evening for $25. Leaving $100 for a permit, or inspection, or professional help if you need it.
There are numerous good How-To examples on the web of how to tie multiple rods together.
On my ToDo list is to drive a rod inside the basement through the floor. Perhaps 'overkill' for some, but I've lost multiple electronic devices ( security panel+computer+telephone equip etc) from surges despite whole-house surge protection at the meter purchased from the electric utility. I had extended discussions with the engineer who designed the commercial meter-socket plug-in that the utility purchases and what he said from his perspective jived well with my 40 years of geophysics experience.
My "ultimate" solution is/was to use the HA system to disconnect sensitive equipment during storms as shown on my web site: http://www.econtrol.org/power_conditioning.htm . Plans are to fit it with a WebControl internet device ( search CoccoonTech for "webcontrol" to make it web-accessible, hard-wire emailed alerts on powerline status and so on.
HTH ... Marc
pete_c
Guru
Thanks Marc. I noticed in FL the electric company is selling/leasing surge protection installed outside by the meter.
Followed the ground on my panel. The ground rod outside is just for cable/telephone/lightning sensor grounding that I could tell. There is a separate 3/4" conduit running from the panel about 30 feet or so to the water main pipes. Here this is a clamp and the braided flat ground cable which is inside of the 3/4 pipe connects to (on the supply copper side of the town's water meter).
Putting an 8 foot ground rod adjacent to the house would be difficult with the drainage pipes / tiles so I would have to go out a bit from the house (6-7 feet maybe).
The ground rods / installation makes me think of when I was a teenager and needed some earthworms night before fishing. I remember putting in two rods and connecting them to 120VAC in one part of the yard (not safe) for a few minutes; then disconnecting the electric and filling up a bucket with earthworms.
Followed the ground on my panel. The ground rod outside is just for cable/telephone/lightning sensor grounding that I could tell. There is a separate 3/4" conduit running from the panel about 30 feet or so to the water main pipes. Here this is a clamp and the braided flat ground cable which is inside of the 3/4 pipe connects to (on the supply copper side of the town's water meter).
Putting an 8 foot ground rod adjacent to the house would be difficult with the drainage pipes / tiles so I would have to go out a bit from the house (6-7 feet maybe).
The ground rods / installation makes me think of when I was a teenager and needed some earthworms night before fishing. I remember putting in two rods and connecting them to 120VAC in one part of the yard (not safe) for a few minutes; then disconnecting the electric and filling up a bucket with earthworms.
pete_c
Guru
Thanks Steve for the links to your pictures. My panel is mounted on a piece of plywood in the basement with access to the top, sides and bottom of it. Its pretty full now with mini-tangents as you have depicted on the bottom right of your panel. I noticed that you have two hot leads (black) connected to what appears to be two 30 amp breakers on the right side of your panel. Is you panel alternating between phases on one side? My panel has the phases lined up on either side of the center (picture). I will need to put more mini dual breakers to install two new 30 amp breakers. Just noticed that I have only 8 single breakers left that I can replace with mini tandems. In the last 7 years or so have been adding / splitting circuits mostly just 15AMP but a few 20AMP too. Kind of busy in my panel. I am going to install the surge supressor right above the SA phase coupler that you see in the picture.
Steve
Senior Member
If you look at Pic 8 you see the two hot lines going to one breaker. It's the breaker directly below the one with the white label. You can maybe see it better in Pic 11. Yes, the panel alternates phases down each side, I thought that was pretty typical.
pete_c
Guru
OK; I see it. Thanks Steve.
It appears to be a 2 phase single throw breaker that you have in place. I've never seen one of those.
When I went to help a friend to put in his surge protector (Leviton) after the lightning strike I ended up not doing it and suggested that he hire a carpenter first. He finished his basement and the panel sits right in the middle of his finished basement wall (he used wood paneling). The guy who was finishing the basement boxed in the panel with 2X4's making it difficult to put any type of surge supressor in place on other side of the panel. The bottom of the panel had a couple of outs on it so there too it was difficult.
Here for the Square D panels they only sell double throw (connected) to two tangent breakers and mini dual single slot breakers. Looking at the top right below my main breaker you see the two metal breaker connectors. These two run in a line down each side of the breaker panel. Easy to snap in place; just have to be careful. I haven't paid attention to the different breaker boxes sold at the local big box hardware stores. My concern has always been just getting the right mini tangent breakers to fit in the panel. When installing new cables I've tried always not to cross over one side to the other (except for the two external phase couplers I have in place everything else just runs down the side of the panel to its prospective breaker. I have 10 guage white and black stranded wire for the surge protector. I'll have to move some conduit / couple of electrical boxes that I have mounted on the right side up or down to make room for the surge protector. (and later on a transfer switch). The punch out holes are all either 1/2" or 3/4" or both on that side.
It appears to be a 2 phase single throw breaker that you have in place. I've never seen one of those.
When I went to help a friend to put in his surge protector (Leviton) after the lightning strike I ended up not doing it and suggested that he hire a carpenter first. He finished his basement and the panel sits right in the middle of his finished basement wall (he used wood paneling). The guy who was finishing the basement boxed in the panel with 2X4's making it difficult to put any type of surge supressor in place on other side of the panel. The bottom of the panel had a couple of outs on it so there too it was difficult.
Here for the Square D panels they only sell double throw (connected) to two tangent breakers and mini dual single slot breakers. Looking at the top right below my main breaker you see the two metal breaker connectors. These two run in a line down each side of the breaker panel. Easy to snap in place; just have to be careful. I haven't paid attention to the different breaker boxes sold at the local big box hardware stores. My concern has always been just getting the right mini tangent breakers to fit in the panel. When installing new cables I've tried always not to cross over one side to the other (except for the two external phase couplers I have in place everything else just runs down the side of the panel to its prospective breaker. I have 10 guage white and black stranded wire for the surge protector. I'll have to move some conduit / couple of electrical boxes that I have mounted on the right side up or down to make room for the surge protector. (and later on a transfer switch). The punch out holes are all either 1/2" or 3/4" or both on that side.
Steve
Senior Member
It's a standard SquareD double pole breaker where each connection is a different phase.
pete_c
Guru
Yes; that's where I buy my mini tandem breakers. So I will need 2 30AMP full size breakers for the surge protector heh STeve? Might as well purchase and install them.
Neurorad
Senior Member
I actually have, at least superficially, what appears to be an OK single ground rod. I'd love to add another 1, connected by copper. I'd need a concrete saw for that, and not just a drill, leaving an unsightly mark in my driveway.
I'd need to replace the section of aggregate.My main breaker panel is on the same wall as my meter and service entrance (same stud bay, interior/exterior), so I'm pretty good in that regard.
hult
Active Member
I actually have, at least superficially, what appears to be an OK single ground rod. I'd love to add another 1, connected by copper. I'd need a concrete saw for that, and not just a drill, leaving an unsightly mark in my driveway.
My main breaker panel is on the same wall as my meter and service entrance (same stud bay, interior/exterior), so I'm pretty good in that regard.
Not sure I understand ... The meter is on the outside of the house, right? What prevents you from installing one ground rod there (or tying into the existing one there) and adding two more ~ 6-8 feet on either side of the meter along the wall ? The ground wire can parallel the wall at the junction of the wall and -- if understand correctly -- driveway. Virtually unnoticeable. What don't I understand? If the house has a basement, the location is not ideal -- but that's a different riff ;-) -- although better than a single rod both theoretically and IMO.
... Marc
pete_c
Guru
Marc,
So you are stating that it would be beneficial to add more grounding to existing service entrance grounding (right now its the water main that is supplying the ground for the service entrance fuse panel) by adding 1-2-3 grounding rods outside near the main electric service entrance? The ground rod that is there today is probably not down much more than a couple of feet and only being utilized for telephone, cable TV, outside mounted antenna lightning arrestor. Not sure of the methodology to bring this ground into the house from the service entrance. I've never taken apart the outside cover of the electric meter but do feel cold air coming in when I take the interior fuse panel cover off in the winter. You mention 6AWG bare copper wire for the ground.
So you are stating that it would be beneficial to add more grounding to existing service entrance grounding (right now its the water main that is supplying the ground for the service entrance fuse panel) by adding 1-2-3 grounding rods outside near the main electric service entrance? The ground rod that is there today is probably not down much more than a couple of feet and only being utilized for telephone, cable TV, outside mounted antenna lightning arrestor. Not sure of the methodology to bring this ground into the house from the service entrance. I've never taken apart the outside cover of the electric meter but do feel cold air coming in when I take the interior fuse panel cover off in the winter. You mention 6AWG bare copper wire for the ground.
hult
Active Member
Yes. It could, and probably would, be. The effectiveness of ground rods, as measured by the the wire-to-earth resistance, depends on several variables including electrical conductivity of earth materials, contact between rod and earth materials ("soil"), and geometry of rods and subsurface structures. So in general, more rods are better than fewer rods. If I ran the zoo, there would be a performance standard ( eg, require a measured, <5 ohm resistance) rather than a technology standard ( eg: 5/8" copper-clad rod driven 8 feet into the ground). But that's whole 'nother can of worms ;-)
Use of water line as earth ground was/is code-compliant . And at least in some jurisdictions, used to be required. A buried metal water line typically provides a low resistance path to earth ground. Which is Good.
However, in many cases, and apparently yours, the water line is located far from the entrance panel. So a transient ("surge") may/will take a shorter path to ground -- like through your electronic devices. Which is Bad.
But the rod provides a more direct, shorter path for transients than the circuitous path through the water line, no? Are these two earth grounds are connected together at the entrance panel? If not, where are they interconnected? If it is through the very devices they are supposed to protect, the system could be worse than just ineffective.
First: Do no harm, including:
1) Do not even temporarily disconnect the earth ground with the main breaker closed (in other words, with power to the house), and
2) Don't break any seals on your meter box.
Do read read up on the topic. It may be that you can install the ground rods but have a licensed and knowledgeable electrician (one who actually knows and understands the issues of grounding to protect electronics!) review the installation and make the final connections to the meter and panel.
As with all matters dealing with AC power --as you will know without my pontificating -- safety and compliance with codes and regulations have absolute priority over cost savings.
Mis tres centimos ... Marc
Neurorad
Senior Member
Thanks for the tip, Hult. I have a garage to one side, and a vertical rock retaining wall to the other. I guess where the retaining wall meets the driveway wouldn't be too bad, but I'd prefer to replace the section of aggregate, for appearances. Many of the sections have begun to crack, and I think someday some of the sections will need replacement. I'll add that one to the group.
