Steve
Senior Member
No, it's just a double pole breaker. See my link in post 39.
Total Home Surge Protector
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
No, it's just a double pole breaker. See my link in post 39.
pete_c
Guru
Thanks Steve.
Moving conduit / one dual gang box in the location where the TVSS is going to sit are two separate but time consuming projects. Will proceed a bit at a time.
Doing a few things in preparation:
1 - reorganizing all the breakers on the right side such that I can have two spaces for the double 30 AMP breaker (one at a time)
2 - moving some conduit-gang boxes - Right side of fuse panel power supplied various wireless, antenna amps, 12VDC cam power supply, etc via the two gang boxes.
3 - checking draw and amperage on the split phases, redocumenting (making the circuits more logical relating to their locations in the house - documenting it (a WAF thing).
The bottom of the panel has 4 dual gang boxes attached to it via one conduit; 4 separate circuits and 4 PIMs. (X-10, Insteon, UPB (2)).
Moving conduit / one dual gang box in the location where the TVSS is going to sit are two separate but time consuming projects. Will proceed a bit at a time.
Doing a few things in preparation:
1 - reorganizing all the breakers on the right side such that I can have two spaces for the double 30 AMP breaker (one at a time)
2 - moving some conduit-gang boxes - Right side of fuse panel power supplied various wireless, antenna amps, 12VDC cam power supply, etc via the two gang boxes.
3 - checking draw and amperage on the split phases, redocumenting (making the circuits more logical relating to their locations in the house - documenting it (a WAF thing).
The bottom of the panel has 4 dual gang boxes attached to it via one conduit; 4 separate circuits and 4 PIMs. (X-10, Insteon, UPB (2)).
hult
Active Member
One can avoid all the complications discussed in this thread around how to install a Surge Suppressor Device (SPD; aka TVSS) adjacent the entrance box by installing one inside the box in a breaker position.
Just pop 'em in the position of duplex (2-pole) circuit breaker in the panel and connect the pigtail to neutral -- which in the entrance panel ONLY is the same as earth ground.
Manufacturer of panel and model number of appropriate inside-the-panel SPD :
Just pop 'em in the position of duplex (2-pole) circuit breaker in the panel and connect the pigtail to neutral -- which in the entrance panel ONLY is the same as earth ground.
Manufacturer of panel and model number of appropriate inside-the-panel SPD :
GE ........................
THQLSURGE
Westinghouse ..........BRSURGE
Cutler Hammer .........CHSA
Square D ................QO2175SB
Square D Homeline ...HOM2175SB
Siemens .................QSA1515, QSA2020 (superceded)
.............................QSA1515SPD, QSA2020SPD
Westinghouse ..........BRSURGE
Cutler Hammer .........CHSA
Square D ................QO2175SB
Square D Homeline ...HOM2175SB
Siemens .................QSA1515, QSA2020 (superceded)
.............................QSA1515SPD, QSA2020SPD
The Siemens models have built in breakers (15 amp or 20 amp) that open if the SPD/TVSS is no longer effective which can both provide the signal output to inform an HA system of the failure and protect downstream equipment from damage.
HTH ... Marc
HTH ... Marc
Steve
Senior Member
@bmil: You are right, its not typically a dealer item, I think they sell mostly direct. I bought mine at an EHX show. I would go to their website (link in my first post) and grab their # or email and contact them. I dealt with the SE sales manager.
@hult: Everything I read and was told led me to believe these separate units were much more effective than the breaker replacements protectors.
@pete: I guess those will work, as long as each lead from the TVRSS goes to a separate phase and the whole thing is shut down by throwing a single breaker.
@hult: Everything I read and was told led me to believe these separate units were much more effective than the breaker replacements protectors.
@pete: I guess those will work, as long as each lead from the TVRSS goes to a separate phase and the whole thing is shut down by throwing a single breaker.
pete_c
Guru
Thanks Steve and I believe so.
Took about 10 minutes to do the changes in the panel. I want to move new double breaker two up anyways as it will be closer to the neutral bar shortening my wires even a bit more. I will wait though until wife is out of the house. 10 minutes of on/off's affected her kitchen stuff (and I could hear her voice all the way by the panel - while switching breakers).
In FL the local electric company (Longboat Key) has offered to put a TVSS at the electric meter outside (monthly rental). The panel there is in the garage. It is mounted in a finished wall. I am not sure what the wiring looks like yet as I have not removed the cover to see what comes in from the sides and didn't look when it was installed (I should have though). In FL I have had issues with lights flickering / power going out with every major thunderstorm (over 50% of the time). In FL the electrical feed runs about 75 feet from the meter to the panel so maybe an outside mounted TVSS is necessary (what the electric company is suggesting).
Took about 10 minutes to do the changes in the panel. I want to move new double breaker two up anyways as it will be closer to the neutral bar shortening my wires even a bit more. I will wait though until wife is out of the house. 10 minutes of on/off's affected her kitchen stuff (and I could hear her voice all the way by the panel - while switching breakers).
In FL the local electric company (Longboat Key) has offered to put a TVSS at the electric meter outside (monthly rental). The panel there is in the garage. It is mounted in a finished wall. I am not sure what the wiring looks like yet as I have not removed the cover to see what comes in from the sides and didn't look when it was installed (I should have though). In FL I have had issues with lights flickering / power going out with every major thunderstorm (over 50% of the time). In FL the electrical feed runs about 75 feet from the meter to the panel so maybe an outside mounted TVSS is necessary (what the electric company is suggesting).
Marc,
You seem familiar with the Siemens TVSS device. I'm considering them (since I have Siemens panels), but I'm not sure if they will work for me. Maybe you know the answer.
Here's how my power goes...
POCO transformer on pole -> underground 30' -> meter box on outside of my shop/storage building -> ATS inside shop mounted directly behind meter box (also serves as service disconnect) -> 2' to shop's load center -> undergound 200' to my home -> home's load center.
I was thinking about adding the "breaker-style" TVSS's to both my home's panel and my shop's panel to protect circuits in both locations. However, in both of those panels, the neutrals float. The neutral and earth ground are only bonded/connected in the ATS, which is also the only box with a wire going to a ground rod. I've been told that I should have my home's panel directly connected to another ground rod (near my home), too, but even then, the neutral will still float. The TVSS breakers don't have a pigtail that connects directly to ground, so I'm wondering if they will work correctly in my home and shop subpanels. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Ira
pete_c
Guru
Endeavor continues. I have just a couple of questions relating to installation of box adjacent to fuse panel.
1 - Pictures A & D show where TVSS is going to be installed. I have a piece of plywood next to the fuse panel. It is mounted on a couple of 2 X 4's. The plywood is almost at the same level that the fuse panel (2X4-plywood setup is).
2 - Pictures C, D & E show the knockouts in the fuse panel (a mixture of 1/2" and 3/4" knockouts). I noticed that using 1/2" will be a bit tight so I would prefer to utilize 3/4" pipe. I purchased 1/2" and 3/4" offsets.
3 - Picture F shows about how far the 1/2" or 3/4" hole will be in the TVSS.
I want to place the TVSS is close as I can to the fuse panel. The offsets that I purchased will not get me from the panel knock outs to the TVSS box easily. I have a pipe bender/cutter and 1/2" and 3/4" pipe. I will not be able to bend any pipe though trying to keep a short distance between the TVSS and the fuse panel.
Wonder what I can install between the TVSS box and fuse panel (prefer to utilize 3/4"), keeping the distance short to allow the 4 TVSS wires to go into the panel? The local big box HW store only carries one type of offset. Are there other types/angles made? I wonder if I can utilize a two 90 degree offsets?
1 - Pictures A & D show where TVSS is going to be installed. I have a piece of plywood next to the fuse panel. It is mounted on a couple of 2 X 4's. The plywood is almost at the same level that the fuse panel (2X4-plywood setup is).
2 - Pictures C, D & E show the knockouts in the fuse panel (a mixture of 1/2" and 3/4" knockouts). I noticed that using 1/2" will be a bit tight so I would prefer to utilize 3/4" pipe. I purchased 1/2" and 3/4" offsets.
3 - Picture F shows about how far the 1/2" or 3/4" hole will be in the TVSS.
I want to place the TVSS is close as I can to the fuse panel. The offsets that I purchased will not get me from the panel knock outs to the TVSS box easily. I have a pipe bender/cutter and 1/2" and 3/4" pipe. I will not be able to bend any pipe though trying to keep a short distance between the TVSS and the fuse panel.
Wonder what I can install between the TVSS box and fuse panel (prefer to utilize 3/4"), keeping the distance short to allow the 4 TVSS wires to go into the panel? The local big box HW store only carries one type of offset. Are there other types/angles made? I wonder if I can utilize a two 90 degree offsets?
hult
Active Member
Ira,
In-panel SPD/TVSS's are sold as providing protection from disturbances generated from within the local distribution system. And connecting the pigtail to neutral will do that.
When I first glanced at your post the words "shop" and " 200' " jumped out and I incorrectly mentally pictured sub-panel ( load center) in a shed 200 ft from the main entrance panel. In that case I would use a isolation transformer such as the 3KW one I bought last week new on eBay for $120.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT
which would allow one to have a proper local ground at the shed.
But that's not your circumstance.
Yes, as I understand it, you are supposed to -- and should -- have a local ground but not connected to the neutral at your home. What is ground (not neutral) in your house connected to now? A ground wire in the 200' service cable ?? (yikes ...;-)
Buying a 200-amp isolation transformer and paying for the resulting power loss from now to eternity does not seem like an attractive alternative.
The most authoritative electrical advice I can give you is: "Don't take electrical advice from a geologist" ;-)
+++++++++
I'm curious: Do you have a generator connected to the ATS?
... Marc
Marc,
Thanks for the reply.
The ground bar in my home's subpanel is connected to one of the four wires that go back to the subpanel in my shop, which also has a floating neutral. The shop subpanel has four wires going to the ATS, which is only a couple of feet away.
The issue with adding a ground rod for the home right now is where to put it. The subpanel is located in a closet about 15' from the nearest exterior wall, which also happens to be the exterior wall where the power comes out of the ground for my house. To be more specific, the underground power cables come up adjacent to an exterior wall. There's a junction box there about 4' above the ground. The power cables go thru the back of the junction box into the wall, up the wall into the attic (one story home), across the attic about 15', and then down inside an interior wall into the subpanel. So my options are... 1) put a ground rod near the junction box on the exterior wall and add a wire between the ground rod and the ground wire lug in the junction box, or 2) drill a hole thru the concrete floor in the closet for a ground rod and run a wire between the ground rod and the subpanel ground bar. Option 1 is a lot easier. I'm still trying to find out if option 2 is worth the extra hassle.
I have a Generac 22kW liquid cooled genset connected to the ATS. It's big enough to easily handle my entire load, including a 4 ton A/C and 1-1/2hp water well pump, and did so for four days following hurricane Ike. Quite a few of my appliances are LPG so that helps. When we are running on it, we don't worry about what appliances, etc. we are using. It's just "business as usual".
Regards,
Ira
