Using sensors from an old Brinks wired system?

[RAL]

I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a multi-meter so I can measure the EoLRs. Will this value dictate which panels I'll be able to buy? I'm still looking at Honeywell/Ademco options, and found this starter kit as a viable option. The ones you guys are suggesting are just really expensive. I've also looked at options from Elk since it seems popular on this board. I've decided I want to go cellular so I don't have to sign up for POTS. I've also found that my basement window is covered in my current system, but that sensor is wireless.
 
I've also talked to a couple of companies about coming out, and by the time you add cellular and total connect, the monthly fee is over $40! Crazy. If I can manage this for half that, I'll be a happy camper.
 
Is there any way of finding out from the pic I posted of my panel whether it's DSC or Honeywell manufactured? I've heard those two used commonly, and if it's honeywell, that might indicate the sensors would play nicer with the stuff I'm looking at.

 
Your panel was manufactured by Scantronic, and it is essentially a customized model that they made for Brinks.  It uses different value EOLRs than DSC or Honeywell (4.7K vs 5.6K for DSC and 2K for Honeywell).  As ano said, in many cases the EOLRs are not installed, so that would make it very easy to go with pretty much any brand of replacement.
 
I'm not sure how your wireless sensor on the basement window is interfacing to the alarm panel.  Is there a wireless receiver somewhere connected to the panel?

 

[ano]

To monitor over IP, you buy an adapter from NextAlarm for under $100. It is basically a VoIP box, and you connect it to the alarm like a phone connection, so any alarm that supports a phone should work. If the alarm itself supports IP monitoring, its likely a proprietary system you you would need to subscribe to THEIR monitoring. 

 

[Del91574]

The EOL resistors work like this.  Lets say the EOL resister in 1000 ohms. The value doesn't matter to much here.  So at the sensor side, the 1000 ohms resistor is in series with the magnet switch.  When a window/door is closed, the sensor is closed/0 ohms/shorted.  What the alarm panel "sees" is 1000 ohms because the resistor adds resistance.
 
So why add the 1000 ohms?  Because if the wires going to a sensor short somewhere, and I have had this if wires are pinched together, then the alarm can display a "wiring fault" indicating a problem.  If there was no 1000 ohm resistor, the alarm would only "see" an open or closed. So the resistor allows the panel to check your wiring basically.
 
No, two problems. First, it seems every company seems to use a different EOL value, which makes changing a panel a challenge.  Second, most alarm companies, attempting to save time, install the EOL resistor in the panel, where they provide no wiring protection at all, but some panels require them.
 
Now why is prewire different from Brinks? BIG DIFFERENCE. Are ALL your wires and doors wired?  If yes, in a two story house, I can guarantee Brinks didn't do this. If you only have sensors on some doors and one motion detector, that was Brinks. When you have it prewired, they usually wire for several consoles, all windows, all doors, power, sirens, etc.  ADP only added one console, but using a wire tracer I found two more the builder added with the prewire. 
 
A real pre-wired home is not perfect but MUCH better than a Brinks wire. You simply can't wire completely after the fact.

The intent is there but the fundamental of the EOLR is incorrect.
 
The EOLR is overrated in 99% of the applications out there and will only be of use if there is only a single device per cable.
 
EOLR's being installed (and buried) is really not a huge deal. Either you locate them, or if you can't or they're inaccessible (I had a person bury them inline in walls in a spray foam house, on top of not pulling enough cable to reach the panel location- splices in the middle of the runs) it's not the end of the world. TTL relay with a low pull in on the coil is all you need. Introduces a lot of moving parts, but compared to ripping out trim and walls, not a huge item.
 
What you don't want to do is start making resistor "spiders" by adding/paralleling resistor values to come up with the value needed by a new panel. Asking for a lot of trouble.

 

[Del91574]

Your panel was manufactured by Scantronic, and it is essentially a customized model that they made for Brinks.  It uses different value EOLRs than DSC or Honeywell (4.7K vs 5.6K for DSC and 2K for Honeywell).  As ano said, in many cases the EOLRs are not installed, so that would make it very easy to go with pretty much any brand of replacement.
 
I'm not sure how your wireless sensor on the basement window is interfacing to the alarm panel.  Is there a wireless receiver somewhere connected to the panel?

Old Brinks was Scantronic. This is probably around the vintage that the Honeywell based Brinks panels came out with proprietary receivers using 5800 RF.

 

[RAL]

Old Brinks was Scantronic. This is probably around the vintage that the Honeywell based Brinks panels came out with proprietary receivers using 5800 RF.

 
The photo of his panel shows "Scantronic, Inc 1994" on the top edge of the board.  Did the Scantronic boards also have a proprietary wireless receiver?  Was the receiver separate from the panel? 

 

[Del91574]

The photo of his panel shows "Scantronic, Inc 1994" on the top edge of the board.  Did the Scantronic boards also have a proprietary wireless receiver?  Was the receiver separate from the panel? 

Didn't see any image posted.
 
Scantronic was HW only. RF would've been done via a 3rd party universal receiver and device(s).

 

[RAL]

He posted a photo in post #9 of this thread.

 

[Cavi]

At this point, my plan is to buy these items:
 
- Honeywell VISTA20p
- Honeywell 6162RF (gives me the wireless features I want to add new sensors in the future, should I choose to)
- Honeywell GSMX4G Cellular Communicator
- Standard compatible backup battery
- Is the phone jack needed if I'm going cellular?
- Honeywell 2 wave siren
 
I'm still not sure about my basement window. The sensor there looks wireless, but I need to figure that out for sure, because I don't see a wireless communicator in my CP. Also, does anyone have good suggestions on a fire alarm/carbon monoxide sensor? I would love a single unit that can detect both, but I'm not having any luck finding any. I know Nest can, but I'm unsure if that's compatible.
 
Are there there better options for the price? At the moment, I'm looking at under $350 buying the above items off Amazon.

 

[Del91574]

Would ditch the integrated KP/RF for multiple reasons.
 
The cellular would depend on the CS you intend on using and/or if you are intending on using any apps or cloud based services (TC) though it's not 100% mandatory. Actually all the cell providers offer some sort of web app and integration if you look hard enough. Personally, I like Uplink for a lot of cellular applications as the CS does not need to be an Alarmnet vendor (not a huge deal for me) but the cell is transparent to the CS in my applications. What sort of items you're planning on doing with the panel would dictate if you must go with an Alarmnet unit or not (AVS, etc.)
 
If you buy one of the "kits" it varies by the reseller. Generally, when I purchase from general distribution the kit has everything in it (siren, KP, battery, etc) unless I buy a panel only. At minimum I'd recommend you get the RJ 31X jack and cord even if they don't come with the panel. Usually a $1.50 expense.
 
I'd spring for a 7 aH battery as a minimum, but YMMV.
 
For smoke/CO combined, the only real option is System Sensor I4 series and module. Anything else is going to be separate devices. Forget Nest (many reasons).

 

[Cavi]

For the keypad, would you then suggest getting a standard 6162, with a wireless receiver located at the panel? It seemed much more cost effective to simply get a keypad that would do the job, but am interested in hearing your opinion.
 
I'm having a hard time following your advice about cellular. I wanted to use cellular because I don't want to pay for a POTS line, and have heard cellular is more secure/reliable than IP monitoring. I was planning on going the Total Connect way, but thought that was my only option using the equipment I've selected. I had a look at Uplink's offerings. Are you asserting that they would be compatible with TC and many other options as well? I was planning on going through Alarm Grid.
 
I wasn't looking at a kit, but I have certainly seen them (especially at homesecuritystore.com and alarmgrid.com). I had all of the parts I listed found on Amazon. Getting the phone jack isn't a problem to add on to the order. Are there kits you would suggest based on what I've laid out?
 
Thanks for the fire/co suggestion, it doesn't look like Amazon has one, so I'll search for that elsewhere!

 

[ano]

I'm having a hard time following your advice about cellular. I wanted to use cellular because I don't want to pay for a POTS line, and have heard cellular is more secure/reliable than IP monitoring.

I've had IP monitoring with NextAlarm for 5+ years. All alarm on and off's are reported. During that time it has failed maybe twice. So in maybe 5000 connections, it has failed twice or 99.96% reliability. That is certainly more reliable then my cell phone at least. Just make sure you have battery backup for your modem, router and switches.

 

[Del91574]

Their ABN's are horrible if you really look at them from a security standpoint and I won't get into the scary parts of Nextalarm (been years upon years of this).
 
The ABN's are an "always on" device. Nextalarm is treating them as a supervised device, but their notifications are only if the device looses connectivity, not if there's latency or other network issues. They are dialer capture with ZERO feedback to the end user and host panel. They've been an issue for years...phantom dropping off (no dial tone) but pushing out voltage to keep the panel(s) happy until they do a dialer test or some other report (assuming the host panel supervises line cut and not just comm failure).
 
It was a down and dirty way for them to get panels designed for POTS on a network for "dummies" per se, with a proprietary nature to ensure account RMR. Essentially an asterisk PBX in the box. UL listed, no way. Caveat Emptor.
 
True IP monitoring is one animal, as is a true IP based CS. IP monitoring on a consumer grade network and service is extremely hit or miss and varies significantly by ISP and locale. There's a reason why IP monitoring for FACP's is rejected by AHJ's even though the NFPA allows it.

 

[Cavi]

Just confirmed my basement window is wired in, not wireless. My mistake - but this saves me money in the short run. I'll just use a 6162 since I don't have any wireless devices as yet. Whenever I want to add something, I'll be able to pick up a wireless receiver and add to the panel.
 
My current panel already has a phone jack, so I think I can just re-purpose that.
 
So now I'm looking at these items:
- Honeywell VISTA20p
- Honeywell 6162
- Uplink 4500EZ Cellular Communicator - I'm assuming this would also be compatible with TC should I go that route?
- 12v 7ah alarm battery
- Honeywell 2 wave siren
 
I figure I need to hope that all my sensors are in working order still!

 

[cheezit73]

Cavi,
 
I installed a Vista system in my last house using the RF keypad for 20+ wireless contacts.  Over a three year period I never had a single problem with it.  I am not saying DelInstallations opinion is not valid but he did not mention the reasons he is against it and I would be curious to know what they are for my own knowledge too.  If I were you I would just get the RF keypad as it is not much more than the standard so even if you decided it didn't work well for you down the road you could still add the standalone wireless receiver but if it works you will save some money.

 

[Del91574]

Just confirmed my basement window is wired in, not wireless. My mistake - but this saves me money in the short run. I'll just use a 6162 since I don't have any wireless devices as yet. Whenever I want to add something, I'll be able to pick up a wireless receiver and add to the panel.
 
My current panel already has a phone jack, so I think I can just re-purpose that.
 
So now I'm looking at these items:
- Honeywell VISTA20p
- Honeywell 6162
- Uplink 4500EZ Cellular Communicator - I'm assuming this would also be compatible with TC should I go that route?
- 12v 7ah alarm battery
- Honeywell 2 wave siren
 
I figure I need to hope that all my sensors are in working order still!

No.
 
TC requires a Honeywell/Alarmnet receiver and compatible CS and subscription.
 
The Uplink 4500EZ would not be recommended. It would only take a summary alarm signal. You need a dialer capture style unit with full data reporting. If you want TC, you need Alarmnet. If you're only looking for app based bells and whistles, you need an appropriate unit. End functionality varies by unit.
 
@ cheez: The integrated KP is fine if you can compromise the location of the receiver and don't develop issues during the initial system installation. Other issues happen as the system ages or if you make changes....what do you do if the "7" key starts to fail on your keypad? In a more traditional system, either you replace the KP, change the code to not have a "7" (usually a root cause associated) or just live with it until the KP gives up the ghost or false alarms occur. The issue with an integrated RF receiver and KP, is the overall cost or maintenance (replace a more costly unit vs. keypad) or in an installation standpoint....I decided to add the new 5800XY clapper puller to the system to monitor XYZ and now I'm getting random "check" on the system (loss of supervision) or troubles occur randomly after I installed this new wireless I-whatever.....Now with a separate receiver, you can relocate, but with an integrated unit you're stuck; Now that money you spent for the integrated unit is out the window because you either have to buy a separate component anyway or relocate the device.
 
There's cases for everything, but in the case of performance vs. location, especially in a more difficult installation environment (foil backed wallpaper, metal lath, foil insulation, concrete walls) the performance of any of the Honeywell RF keypads is always going to be poorer, especially with the TM module. Take a look at the antennas on a 5881/2 receiver and a 5800TM or a 5883 and compare to a rf keypad and tell me what the differences are. The marketing point for the pros and price point is/was to get RF on the ECP bus with no additional cabling and have it work in a large percentage of the installations so the dealer can (for short money) get RF on a system for additional sales (keyfobs) or to slam more systems in a mass-market business model. Even with a 100% hybrid installation of a traditional control panel, the alarm dealer still needs to pull cable for phone, AC, siren and KP (discounting cellular based systems). The same holds true for the all-in-one systems that have an add on card for cellular monitoring (GE, 2GIG, Honeywell, etc.) What do you do if the location of the unit doesn't have good cell service but elsewhere (say a townhouse condo) does?