Which UPB switch do you recommend?
- Thread starter Mr Spock
- Start date
Ranger Digital
Active Member
Im thinking I dont want Alezis to change my mind, lol. Something is up with that.
SA products are just fine and I wont hammer you on choosing SA over HAI. SA is not 3x times the price Alez, will assume you just had a typo there.
I prefer the breadth of product offers in the SA line up. That leaves me with asking myself why wouldnt I use SA? I have a mix of SA (almost 80 loads) and few HAI's sprinkled in. I sure cant tell the difference in performance. Granted, I havent done any Omni programming yet, just Upstart, as we just got the switches put in and havent tackled that project yet. I dont even have a coupler or anything else installed and perfermance is fantastic. Im assuming I will need the coupler at some point, maybe needed once I start getting the lights automated via Ominpro? Not sure. AND I have four panel boxes in my house. I just cant believe it all works so far, lol. My understanding was you MUST have a coupler. I have tried to enroll/find a couple switches via PC Access with not luck so it could be the no coupler or Im just not doing it right.
SA products are just fine and I wont hammer you on choosing SA over HAI. SA is not 3x times the price Alez, will assume you just had a typo there.
I prefer the breadth of product offers in the SA line up. That leaves me with asking myself why wouldnt I use SA? I have a mix of SA (almost 80 loads) and few HAI's sprinkled in. I sure cant tell the difference in performance. Granted, I havent done any Omni programming yet, just Upstart, as we just got the switches put in and havent tackled that project yet. I dont even have a coupler or anything else installed and perfermance is fantastic. Im assuming I will need the coupler at some point, maybe needed once I start getting the lights automated via Ominpro? Not sure. AND I have four panel boxes in my house. I just cant believe it all works so far, lol. My understanding was you MUST have a coupler. I have tried to enroll/find a couple switches via PC Access with not luck so it could be the no coupler or Im just not doing it right.
and with all due respect sir, it was not my intension to bash SA products. I am certain that they are great products no doubt about it along with an excellent pricing.
I was just saying for that particular post that starting from scratch and thinking about LED ligths replacement in the near future, it might worth it to shed a couple extra dollars to have the newest firmware revisions with CFL/LED support on many type of light bulbs and with the addition of a repeater, have a even more rock solid system with the Omni Pro II...
In my opinion, it was/is worth to think about it. I am an integrator, and yes I sell HAI product but I do not work for HAI. I am just relating that these products also works extremely well (specially the latest ones with the repeater) and you might think about it. Why buy something and down the road be obligated to replace again for a possible compatibility issue with LED products when you can think about it right away. I think that way it will cost you more than buy the right thing right away.
Regards
Alezis
I don't want you to change your mind. I just want you to think about it and you'll get your own conclusion.
By the way, why did you not use your omni pro II in the begining to program all your UPB devices ? The HAI system coordinate everything so you get a good response with proper feedback. I would understand your procedure withouy a controller but having a fine controller like the omni pro II, I think it is a must to use it to program your UPB devices.
I am not saying that you can't do this with upstart but from what I do here, I only use upstart to tweak or trouble shoot a system like the last one I fix was programmed horribly wrong with scene switch id program also on dimmer id at the same time. upstart was a nice tool for trouble shooting this and monitor/find noise levels.
And with all due respect, and this is my opinion, I am pretty sure that you did not program the way the HAI controller is structured. Not that your method is not good, it is just different and might not be the most efficient way to make it work with the Omni controller.
Specially if you have iphone/tablet/android devices, I really urge you to use/try the omni controller to programm all your UPB devices. It is super eazy to do and if you have a good response on your system right now, you also should have a good response when using the omni to trigger events and monitor room ligthing.
Again, this is only my opinion and not having seen your upstart programming, I make assumptions. That is why I suggest you to try from your omni controller since you have it. I would not discuss this if you did not have an omni controller.
Regards,
Alezis
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Alezis - you're pushing the issues "why would one buy SA when they may have compatibility issues"... so try this - how about asking, has there been a single reported issue of compatibility problems with SA and any type of light bulb? Any problems with CFL's, LED's, or any other type? I've been around this board for 6 years and haven't heard of one.
Part of the deal with UPB is licensing the technology; It could be argued that the only point of going to Gen II or Gen III is so that PCS, the inventor of UPB, can get more licensing revenue. From what I understand, most of these improvements were already in SA switches before new generations were introduced.
Simply Automated has some huge advantages; just look at my signature; one can pick from 2 models that will cover 99% of their house. The products work great and require little tuning if any. As above, often it doesn't even require a phase coupler (in those cases, the signal is strong enough to travel back to the transformer and jump phases and return to the house).
It's fine for anyone to ask questions and learn, but you're at a point where it sounds like you're putting the OP down because of some phantom problems that probably don't exist. Your tone is very off-putting. And in your less than 24-hours of membership to this forum, you've blown up this thread and its members over this topic.
Regarding programming from the Omni - yes, it's an option; but if you fully understand how the HLC protocol works, there's also nothing wrong with programming via Upstart as long as you keep the whole Room convention together; if I understand correctly, you get more flexibility in using Upstart.
BTW, if someone really thought they cared about GenII on a SA switch, a company called WebMountain sells SA switches that they have reflashed with GenII firmware (a process that users can't do); but again, 6 years of watching this stuff, and I haven't heard of anyone doing it or needing to.
And lastly - I know retail and wholesale prices for all these switches, and SA tends to be 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the HAI or PCS switches.
And actually, I'll take that back - there's one user of these forums that will go on about only using GenII devices because he doesn't believe in fixing the noise problems but wants something that can push through them. He had a noisy range and pool pump and didn't believe in fixing the noise source.
Part of the deal with UPB is licensing the technology; It could be argued that the only point of going to Gen II or Gen III is so that PCS, the inventor of UPB, can get more licensing revenue. From what I understand, most of these improvements were already in SA switches before new generations were introduced.
Simply Automated has some huge advantages; just look at my signature; one can pick from 2 models that will cover 99% of their house. The products work great and require little tuning if any. As above, often it doesn't even require a phase coupler (in those cases, the signal is strong enough to travel back to the transformer and jump phases and return to the house).
It's fine for anyone to ask questions and learn, but you're at a point where it sounds like you're putting the OP down because of some phantom problems that probably don't exist. Your tone is very off-putting. And in your less than 24-hours of membership to this forum, you've blown up this thread and its members over this topic.
Regarding programming from the Omni - yes, it's an option; but if you fully understand how the HLC protocol works, there's also nothing wrong with programming via Upstart as long as you keep the whole Room convention together; if I understand correctly, you get more flexibility in using Upstart.
BTW, if someone really thought they cared about GenII on a SA switch, a company called WebMountain sells SA switches that they have reflashed with GenII firmware (a process that users can't do); but again, 6 years of watching this stuff, and I haven't heard of anyone doing it or needing to.
And lastly - I know retail and wholesale prices for all these switches, and SA tends to be 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the HAI or PCS switches.
And actually, I'll take that back - there's one user of these forums that will go on about only using GenII devices because he doesn't believe in fixing the noise problems but wants something that can push through them. He had a noisy range and pool pump and didn't believe in fixing the noise source.
Sir, in no way I have tried to offend anybody. English is not my first spoken language and I did try very hard in each of my reply being gentle and just try to understand why people choose a certain product over another product and give some of my ideas to think about.
If I did push my questions and reflection too far, I appologize to everybody in the post, it was not my intention to have a bad "tone".
You have a point that I have no documentation on SA that have problematic operation as I don't know these product much. The experience I do have is that when you drive low power loads or LED with HAI dimmer, they operate erraticaly, turn on by them self, make flickering when off and have bad dimming curve. I "assumed" all UPB react the same way. For now, we had a fantastic experience with the newest products and ideed, LED respond 90% better with these new HAI dimmer.
If I had knew, I would have built all my clients from 6 years ago with SA as they could operate now only by replacing their light bulbs going from 4X50W mr16 to 4X9W LED mr16 and have a seemless transition... my bad. I guess I should have read more and this is why I ask questions here. I got my answer I guess now...
My last point was that I don't understand why someone with a Omni Pro II would choose to program their UPB devices regardless the brand with upstart since the omni pro II handle all of your network in a neat way. If you are running stand alone, I hear you but when you have a controller that is made to run these UPB device, why not use it ? I never said it was wrong using upstart.
I guess I'll end it here. I am sorry to have disrupted this conversation post and that it went this way. It was not my intention.
I'm in the process of building a new house, and I will be installing about 80 switches with a controller. My plan was to use HAI switches with the omni pro II. The prices I have found for the SA($50) vs the HAI($55). We will be using almost all LEDs throughout the house. Can anyone point me in the direction of better pricing? Why one would choose either brand over the other? Is price the only reason to choose SA?
Thanks...Tom
Thanks...Tom
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Alezis - no problem - it's just the way you worded it... but we're all here to share information. I personally have not heard of anyone having any problems controlling any type of light load running SA switches or dimmers.
Tom/Alezis - The reason that I personally like the SA lineup is that you really only have two switches to choose from for the most part. A standard rocker (US1140) or the configurable one (US240) that can be a standard rocker or a full scene switch, all depending on what you feel like doing. You don't have to worry as much about relay vs. dimmer and dimmer compatibility with CFL vs. LED vs. Incandescent. They just seem to work. For more details on SA switches, please check out the signature in my article - it covers the Simply Automated line in a lot of detail. In my opinion, the way the SA switches work and can be configured to do just about anything makes them the most flexible style of switch available across any lighting technology.
And to any prospective buyer, I'd suggest that "Newer isn't always better" - sometimes it is, and sometimes it's just a marketing tool to get you to upgrade or to sway you in a particular direction. I can't tell you for sure what it is with SA; it's up to the buyers to review the information available and come up with their own opinions.
Tom/Alezis - The reason that I personally like the SA lineup is that you really only have two switches to choose from for the most part. A standard rocker (US1140) or the configurable one (US240) that can be a standard rocker or a full scene switch, all depending on what you feel like doing. You don't have to worry as much about relay vs. dimmer and dimmer compatibility with CFL vs. LED vs. Incandescent. They just seem to work. For more details on SA switches, please check out the signature in my article - it covers the Simply Automated line in a lot of detail. In my opinion, the way the SA switches work and can be configured to do just about anything makes them the most flexible style of switch available across any lighting technology.
And to any prospective buyer, I'd suggest that "Newer isn't always better" - sometimes it is, and sometimes it's just a marketing tool to get you to upgrade or to sway you in a particular direction. I can't tell you for sure what it is with SA; it's up to the buyers to review the information available and come up with their own opinions.
There are several reasons to use UPStart. A simple one is that the HAI model of a room controller and 7 units does not always work - especially for rooms where you want more than 7 loads. Because UPB devices actually have 16 links that they can respond to, it's easy to use UPStart to allow multiple rooms to work together. Programming via the HAI panel can't do this, but via UPStart, you can.
Ranger Digital
Active Member
First, no problems with your posting now that I have a more clear understanding of your wording/intention.
The reason I used upstart is because I THOUGHT you HAD to use it first, lol. Really. The only reason I used it. Now, I have everything done in upstart and have learned there is NO WAY to import ALL THAT INFO and input into pc access or the panel. That really sucks. Now, I cant even get pc access to control any of the UBB lights. I have the right codes, addresses, network, password, etc and cant figure out what I am doing wrong. Actually, there is ONE light I can control. The rest, nothing. I cannot enroll ANY devices via PC Access. Keeps trying to find them then times out. Ive spent hours on it. Will continue trying.
Desert_AIP
Senior Member
I use UpStart to customize behavior, to modify the default HLC behaviors and to include units in links across HLC rooms.
HLC and custom configs in UpStart work very well in concert with one another.
As for LEDs and SA switches, I have more than 50 Cree CR6 lamps in my home all being controlled with SA switches.
Dimming performance and general response to links is excellent.
HLC and custom configs in UpStart work very well in concert with one another.
As for LEDs and SA switches, I have more than 50 Cree CR6 lamps in my home all being controlled with SA switches.
Dimming performance and general response to links is excellent.
I understand what you are saying but what about customer using the HAI app on their ios or android device ? The lighting structure in the HAI controller won't work with your programming to get feedback and rooms then ? Right ?
Even when you have a small amount of LED lamps on one circuit, you get good results ? Like have 18 watts with only two bulbs ?
HAI devices goes erratic and have horrible dimming curve. The new CFL on the other hand react pretty good.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I have a whole bunch of really cheap LED's in my house, and they work the same whether I have 1 bulb or 6 on a circuit. In fact, I have a few places where a single link controls several different lighting circuits, and they dim evenly and consistently whether there's 1 LED, 9 LED's an LED and an incandescent, and anywhere in between. I've even used SA light modules to dim LED christmas lights that are only a couple watts.
The dimming curve may be weird depending on the bulb; for instance many of these really cheap bulbs will dim down to 20% before going off, but have to be up to 40% before they come on... but others have reported that some of the higher end LED bulbs, such as some of Phillips' nicer bulbs, can dim down to nearly 2%.
Many of the problems we've had I suspect were with early technology LED bulbs. Give it time and they'll all start performing like the L-Prize bulb, or better. At the end of the day, the manufacturers are going to want to produce bulbs that are as widely compatible as humanly possible with the existing switches, and I would imagine some of the first adopters of LED are also people that are into dimming and nicer lighting systems (restaurants, theaters, high end homes, etc). Otherwise if you don't need dimming, there's no good reason to pay the difference between LED and CFL right now.
The dimming curve may be weird depending on the bulb; for instance many of these really cheap bulbs will dim down to 20% before going off, but have to be up to 40% before they come on... but others have reported that some of the higher end LED bulbs, such as some of Phillips' nicer bulbs, can dim down to nearly 2%.
Many of the problems we've had I suspect were with early technology LED bulbs. Give it time and they'll all start performing like the L-Prize bulb, or better. At the end of the day, the manufacturers are going to want to produce bulbs that are as widely compatible as humanly possible with the existing switches, and I would imagine some of the first adopters of LED are also people that are into dimming and nicer lighting systems (restaurants, theaters, high end homes, etc). Otherwise if you don't need dimming, there's no good reason to pay the difference between LED and CFL right now.
