Which UPB switch do you recommend?

[Basildane]

Yes JonW is correct. You gain much, lose nothing. But is does require much more thought in the programming.
I would like to point out that I have a lot of automation going on, including 2 iPads, live floorplan display that is interactive...
NOTHING gets out of sync with the HAI.

To the person who is asking why... If you decide to go either route, we are here to help you get it to work.

 

[Basildane]

Not to call you out, but that actually goes against everything I know about UPB. In fact, it's stated that the reason UPB does a lousy job of tracking status is that when a link is activated, it can affect anywhere from 1 to 256 devices - and the switch receiving the link has no idea how many others received the same link; so it does NOT send its status because that could create a network flood if too many tried to do that at once.

It's a minor thing, but you are correct. They don't report back automatically from a link, but with a few lines of code in the Omni, you can poll them for status.
That's what I do.

 

[JonW]

It's a minor thing, but you are correct. They don't report back automatically from a link, but with a few lines of code in the Omni, you can poll them for status.
That's what I do.

Yes, Work2Play and Basildane you are correct. Auto-report is only when used locally.

It's been so long since I programmed my system I forgot that I did put some trigger lines in the Omni to get status for those global links!

 

[tmbrown97]

I wish the Elk could do that - but I don't believe it can so it tends to get out of sync with my lights. Luckily I don't yet do anything that matters with it... and when I do, that's what I bought Elve for.

 

[Alezis]

Not to call you out, but that actually goes against everything I know about UPB. In fact, it's stated that the reason UPB does a lousy job of tracking status is that when a link is activated, it can affect anywhere from 1 to 256 devices - and the switch receiving the link has no idea how many others received the same link; so it does NOT send its status because that could create a network flood if too many tried to do that at once.

That is EXACTLY what I understand !!!

When you activate a link and 40 UPB devices react at the same time, they "would" send out their status all at the same time and would creates collisions on the UPB network thus being impossible to "read" the status of all devices. That is the reason when you activate a link, the UPB device never send it's status.

I agree with you sir 100%...

 

[Alezis]

It's a minor thing, but you are correct. They don't report back automatically from a link, but with a few lines of code in the Omni, you can poll them for status.
That's what I do.

So again sir, the only "benefit" is to make all devices respond at the same time. When your poll resquest start, your UPB network will be as much busy as if you had programmed everything in the omni controller at let it do it's thing room by room.

We agree on this too ?

 

[Basildane]

I don't agree. I do things that HLC alone cannot do.
For example, smooth fading of groups. Like my wake-up routine.
You can do that on the Omni using a hundred "steps", but ... it sucks.

As for the polling, I only poll what is necessary. I don't poll 40 devices at once, true.
I think it will take about a second to do each device. You have to do the math.

My recommendation is this. Start out doing all with native HAI stuff. That's how most of us started.
Then, as you are comfortable, add custom Upstart enhancements - or not, if you think it is not necessary.

You don't have to do it all at once. Grow at your own pace.

 

[Alezis]

I don't agree. I do things that HLC alone cannot do.
For example, smooth fading of groups. Like my wake-up routine.
You can do that on the Omni using a hundred "steps", but ... it sucks.

As for the polling, I only poll what is necessary. I don't poll 40 devices at once, true.
I think it will take about a second to do each device. You have to do the math.

My recommendation is this. Start out doing all with native HAI stuff. That's how most of us started.
Then, as you are comfortable, add custom Upstart enhancements - or not, if you think it is not necessary.

You don't have to do it all at once. Grow at your own pace.

I understand.

I already have a good understanding of the HLC structure.

At some time in the past, I use to do what you've done like "interior off" link (that's why I said 40 devices) or smooth fading of a group of light but it was a mess in the status after that and polling everything after that link event was "freezing" the upb network as you say one second for each device when you have proper communication with no retries !

The whole point of my conversation was that you can make things happend with HLC programming in the omni, yes I agree it might sucks but you can !

What do you do for polling the status of your devices when you activate a "special" link requires quite a bit of programming too !

If you have the patience to explain how you did it, I would certainly give it a try again but I have change my way of programming since that time and let the omni do it's own thing.

 

[Steve]

And lastly - I know retail and wholesale prices for all these switches, and SA tends to be 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the HAI or PCS switches.

And actually, I'll take that back - there's one user of these forums that will go on about only using GenII devices because he doesn't believe in fixing the noise problems but wants something that can push through them. He had a noisy range and pool pump and didn't believe in fixing the noise source.

As long as I've been called out... With all due respect, and I do mean that honestly, you tell others to watch their tone when English isn't even their first language (pretty obvious from their location and grammar) but I could make a pretty big deal about your tone in this comment. If I didn't know you as well as I do I could easily be very offended and take serious issue with this comment. I've been around here, and UPB even longer than you have and you should really have some facts before making statements like this. It comes across very demeaning while advancing your 'apparent' pro SAI agenda.

I think everyone needs to recognize that automation in general and specifically UPB, a powerline protocol is not black and white. You simply cannot make generalizations as everybody essentially has a unique environment and will experience different issues even with the same exact equipment. The powerline absolutely SUCKS as a transport medium and it keeps getting worse as everyone is trying to use it to transport signals and more and more devices are getting attached both inside and outside the home that potentially generate noise, etc. I have UPB devices from SAI, HAI and PCS as well as Centralite Jetstream. I can tell you I would recommend any of the products and companies in general so that is not really a factor. But based on MY experience I would choose to use HAI or PCS products over SAI at every turn.

First, there is simply NOT a huge difference in price between the entry HAI and SAI dimmers. In fact at retail I can go right now and purchase HAI dimmers even LESS than SAI. I won't even discuss wholesale prices. The only argument you can make is at the entry level the SAI switch is rated 900W vs 600W before derating. So I'm not sure where this HAI is 1/2 to 1/3 more is coming from. PCS has always been the 'elite' in UPB and demanded a higher price. I'm not even going to get into the whole feature sets/LED colors/programming/etc issues.

But the real thing I want to address is the comment that I am essentially 'lazy' and didn't want to address the problem. First and foremost I had indeed spent countless hours with meters/software, etc doing extensive testing of every single circuit, outlet and switch location in my house. I have bad home genetics and before even a single device went in I knew I had poor signal propagation. Nonetheless back at that time 2005/6 I made the decision to try SAI equipment. It had very mixed results. I did try couplers in various locations, etc, etc. It worked 'ok' for the time. Then yes a 220v electric cooktop was added into the mix and at certain settings it wreaked havoc with the system. NOTHING worked. There was pretty much a constant 22+ level of noise when it was on a certain setting. I worked with SAI engineers at the time and they had NOTHING to offer. I was even told at one point they purchased the guts of the appliance and they were going to custom build a filter to try. That NEVER happened. At the time NOBODY had any filters. inductors, etc that would work on a 220v 40a circuit. And even if they did, it would have been a good bit of work to install something that large (I won't get into those details). SAI had no answers, but I guess I was lazy and didn't believe in finding and fixing the noise (sorry, I know that was poor sarcastic tone!) The later added variable speed pool pump, hell, even a basic $20 motion outdoor flood also wreaked havoc on the system.

After extensive conversations with PCS at EHX shows, etc. we talked about the new Gen II firmware they developed and they were convinced from their engineering and testing that it would work where SAI did not. They were so sure they gave me a Gen II PIM and switch to test it. I took a SAI switch that worked maybe 10-20% of the time and just replaced it with the PCS switch. Initially I just used the new PIM manually via Upstart. Guess what - it actually now worked 95% or more of the time. Is that smoke and mirrors? Magic? Call it what you want but the bottom line was Gen II worked where Gen I failed miserably. Later, I added an SPR and it brought reliability up to high 90 range.

And I won't elaborate here as its all documented in various posts over the years, but I've also had > 10 SAI switches fail on me. Surges? Who knows, but I know I lost SAI switches in same multigang boxes as others and I have not lost a single HAI or PCS switch. Sure SAI was great and replaced them and had theories of bad diodes, etc - who knows and maybe it was just me, but it was another negative experience with SAI.

Do I bash SAI, absolutely not - it can be a fine device in the right (and even many) situation. But the bottom line for ME is I had a technology in Gen II that worked where Gen I didn't. Could I have spent a ton more hours and even dollars trying to build filters, yada, yada - maybe - but why? Automation should SIMPLIFY your life, not complicate it and make you crazy trying to go around patching things to try to get something to work. I could do that with 70's x10 technology.

If you have clean powerlines (at least for now) and you like what SAI offers - go for it, but IMHO there is no reason to use Gen I devices when Gen II will do everything Gen I does AND give you the insurance against future noise issues like I have seen and I have seen several times here as well. Like was stated, - if you like SAI, why not get Web Mountain with Gen II? SAI are the only ones sticking to their guns that Gen II+ is not necessary. I would simply not sell or install any more Gen I devices.

Anyway, everyone should choose what works for them based on their own requirements and situation, but please don't minimize MY issues, time and experience. And even though my UPB is largely stable, I would replace them with a good Zigbee system in a heartbeat one there is a quality switch (to my standards).

Oh, and speaking of LED, I now have 3 rooms with either 5 or 6 can lights with new LED PAR30 bulbs. 2 of the rooms are on SAI dimmers and the light sometimes 'dance' around, changing brightness, etc. The other room is on a Jetsream/Zigbee switch and it is rock solid perfect. They are all the same exact light bulb. Is it a coincidence the SAI UPB circuits have a problem? I don't know, one of these days I will replace one of the rooms SAI switch with a HAI or PCS and see what happens.

 

[tmbrown97]

Hey Steve,

I wasn't trying to call you out or minimize your issues at all, and I apologize if it came across that way. I chose that wording because I believe those were the words you used yourself when we discussed this issue quite some time ago. I was only trying to relay exactly what you told me, and you emphasized that you didn't believe you should have to filter your appliances, but that the switch should be able to push through the issues.

I like the SA product. I don't make any money endorsing them and they don't really know who I am - I just try to relay what I've learned from my experiences and also what I've learned from others over the years. It's no different than Lou endorsing Insteon which he's been very happy with.

Thank you for adding your experience and perspective to this - you've probably done more of the comparison and troubleshooting than a good majority of the people around here, including myself admittedly. In my own installs I use all SA for consistency, and my only issue to overcome was needing two phase couplers. And from my sources, SA is also always cheaper, especially if getting into scene controllers. On top of that, their support really goes the extra mile in my experience. All important aspects to consider.

I am glad I haven't had any noise issues to contend with because, as you alluded to, there just aren't any good ways to filter high-amperage appliances. That's a fault to anything that tries to talk over power line. To that point though, I really have seen very few posts here about problems with UPB in general. In fact, we still see people talk about their still-working x10 all the time, and UPB is light years ahead of that!

I also do know that the entire landscape of lighting automation has changed significantly over the last several years and is far from slowing down. UPB has evolved; ZWave is on fire right now, and Zigbee shows lots of promise as well. Only time will tell where it all lands.

 

[Basildane]

I understand.

I already have a good understanding of the HLC structure.

At some time in the past, I use to do what you've done like "interior off" link (that's why I said 40 devices) or smooth fading of a group of light but it was a mess in the status after that and polling everything after that link event was "freezing" the upb network as you say one second for each device when you have proper communication with no retries !

The whole point of my conversation was that you can make things happend with HLC programming in the omni, yes I agree it might sucks but you can !

What do you do for polling the status of your devices when you activate a "special" link requires quite a bit of programming too !

If you have the patience to explain how you did it, I would certainly give it a try again but I have change my way of programming since that time and let the omni do it's own thing.

Right now, the way I do it is to use HLC for most commands, and if I use special links, follow them with a poll for status. Nothing magical.
I have considered redoing the whole house using links and dropping HLC entirely. I am waffling back and forth on that one. Maybe one day when I'm bored I may...

As someone said in another post, z-wave. I am personally looking more at zigbee because it is a better protocol even though it is not as well supported with products.
I get a lot of complaints about UPB flickering, and worst, the switches buzz. I can't hear it anymore myself , but others complain about it.

 

[Desert_AIP]

SInce this thread has evolved into a "HAI/UPB combo HLC/UpStart best practices" thread:

I don't use the "D" link for any action in most of my rooms. The switches aren't programmed to respond to it.
But when the HAI sees this link it still sends out the status requests for the room.
So I call it an "update" link. Such as "Master Bedroom Update" or "Master Bath Update".

When I have a link that operates seitches across rooms, the statuses canget out of sync because the HAI only pools the home room.

I have a RUC that watches for the room links and sends out the proper update link to prompt the HAI to poll the status of the other rooms. I use the RUC so I don't use up HAI program lines.

For instance I have a "Master Suite Off" Link. All the lights in our Master Bedroom, Master Bath, and both closets respond to it so I can shut down everything in the Master Suite with one switch, I don't have to go back to the bath or into the closets.
The HAI polls the Master Bedroom from this link. After a delay the RUC sends out the Mater Bath Update Link, this prompts the HAI to poll the Master Bath status.

My Dusk and Dawn links control loads across 5 rooms.

 

[rismoney]

I use only 1140s. I have an issue where I am trying to operate a local load and 2 transmits to two receivers that are in the same room. I cannot get them to work harmoniously. The response time seems to manage the local load quicker than the links but this is not desirable for this location. If I am working the dimmer I would want all dims uniformly leveled...

Thoughts?

 

[tmbrown97]

You could try having the local load not respond to the rocker, but instead to the link that the others are responding to.

I have 3 loads in my kitchen that I control via a single rocker (4 if you count the transformer that runs the under-cabinet and over-cabinet lights) and they dim so well you'd never know they weren't all on the same circuit - even with LED that have a much narrower range.

 

[rismoney]

transmit components : RT01/RB01 - Link Name "Family Room All On/Off
for Top and Bottom Super Rocker
for a receive component: I set one to = "Family Room All On/Off"

Under Advanced, if I set it to Load controlled by rocker, it won't control the local load through link apparently...

If I set Load controlled by rocker, it controls it, but exhibits the behavior I detailed with wonky dimming and uneven control. Am I missing a setting?