120 V Hardwired Smoke to Use with Elk

[Desert_AIP]

Here's a pretty good thread from a while back

http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/10787-adding-110v-smokes-into-ha/page__hl__350cx+smoke__fromsearch__1

 

[gizzmo]

Do not connect a "Relay module" to existing 120V Ion smoke alarms so that any of your existing will trip a panel zone. These detectors are typically cheap and suffer from many false alarms along with issues mentioned above. If you replace with quality photo electric detectors you will be glad you did. Another route is to supplement the existing smoke alarms that are designed to wake occupants with system type detectors that can alert a monitoring center.

 

[video321]

In reference to the 350CX...

1. the 350CX is a photoelectric sensor - didn't know that; which means it is the prefered type to be connected to a monitored panel.
2. the 350CX datasheet says this in bold:

The 320A/350 Series smoke alarms cannot be used in​

systems with control panels, pullstations, heat sensors,​

elevator recall, fire door release, etc.

When they say control panels I'm assuming they mean dedicated fire panels and not security panels, right? So, if this detector is photoelectric and can trigger the relay even on battery backup then why wouldn't it be a good choice to connect to the security panel (assuming all 350-series are used)?

 

[gizzmo]

I would need to read the full 350CX instructions to comment but I can say this, smoke alarm and smoke detector are not interchangeable terms. In the eyes of the NFPA they are not the same. Just something to be on the lookout for when trying to interpret code requirements.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[Desert_AIP]

I use the 350CC in all rooms/areas to give me area identification with a single 350CX in my equipment room as a fire verification source.
The CX is also interfaced with a relay controlled by the Omni that turns on if the heat detectors in the attic or garage trip on their separate loops to give me an audible alarm.

 

[Sandpiper]

In reference to the 350CX...

1. the 350CX is a photoelectric sensor - didn't know that; which means it is the prefered type to be connected to a monitored panel.
2. the 350CX datasheet says this in bold:

The 320A/350 Series smoke alarms cannot be used in​

systems with control panels, pullstations, heat sensors,​

elevator recall, fire door release, etc.

When they say control panels I'm assuming they mean dedicated fire panels and not security panels, right? So, if this detector is photoelectric and can trigger the relay even on battery backup then why wouldn't it be a good choice to connect to the security panel (assuming all 350-series are used)?

I'm thinking that the UL listing does not include evaluation of those features, so they don't want these to be installed in those applications for liability reasons.

 

[Del91574]

That would be part of the equation, the other being the detector is being installed in a manner not intended or evaluated by the manufacturer. The unit is really only supposed to be used to trigger an aux device, such as a strobe or bedthumper in an application where a normal audible device is not sufficient.

It may work, however I would not feel comfortable myself going against what the device was tested and evaluated, especially in the case of a life safety device/system.

The best option, though it would cost more, and I've yet to see any AHJ fail an installation, would be to takeover the existing 120V wiring and repurpose it for LV use and detectors. In the overall scheme of things, the price of PE alarm detectors is really insignificant for 9/10 installs.

 

[sonypoolplr]

That would be part of the equation, the other being the detector is being installed in a manner not intended or evaluated by the manufacturer. The unit is really only supposed to be used to trigger an aux device, such as a strobe or bedthumper in an application where a normal audible device is not sufficient.
It may work, however I would not feel comfortable myself going against what the device was tested and evaluated, especially in the case of a life safety device/system.
The best option, though it would cost more, and I've yet to see any AHJ fail an installation, would be to takeover the existing 120V wiring and repurpose it for LV use and detectors. In the overall scheme of things, the price of PE alarm detectors is really insignificant for 9/10 installs.

I have to say that this conversation is getting really confusing. I see some posts where the 350CX is a good detector, then others that say they aren't. The 350CX do seem to be higher priced that other 120v detectors, not that this means anything, but in most situations higher price means a better product. I thing that 120v hardwired detectors are what my inspector wants, but I cannot be 100% sure because I haven't checked with them yet.

Does anyone know what detectors are recommended by the Elk manufactors? If all the 350CX detectors are doing is closing a set of contacts for the alarm panel, I really don't see why this unit won't work.

Thank you for all the replies, this is a very informative thread....even though I am still confused.

 

[wuench]

I agree, yet another conversation that has kind of gotten carried away (but I have learned a lot, like always). Here is what I get out of it. There are only two known 120v options that have relays, GE and Kidde. They are photoelectric which is less sensitive and less prone to false alarms but since that is the only option that doesn't really matter. The GE relay will work on battery whereas the Kidde will not.

So for me, I am still where I started which is getting the GE350cx.

 

[video321]

I'm at a crossroads myself.
I'm at that time where I need to replace my 120V detectors and from what I've been told by a friend who is a local installer is our AHJ requires 120V detectors no matter what. So, replacing them with 12V is out of the question. I was going to replace the 120V and supplement with 12V to be monitored (which, for me at this time, means text messages). However, the 350-based detectors would take care of both issues.

Now....the only question would be when I do get my panel monitored and receive that insurance discount for monitored fire (assuming I'd get one!) and the .001% happens and the CS didn't get the notification, what would happen? Blame the 350CX? Maybe I'll just add 1 or 2 12V to be monitored as well.

 

[gizzmo]

I don't install 120V smoke detectors but I think Gentex is another manufacturer that has these. NFPA 72 does allow for a residential fire alarm system and most security panels carry the rating for UL residential fire use. You should be prepared to site specific code sections and have a licensed installer. Even with that done the AHJ does have the authority to interpret code and make the decision to allow or not.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Now....the only question would be when I do get my panel monitored and receive that insurance discount for monitored fire (assuming I'd get one!) and the .001% happens and the CS didn't get the notification, what would happen? Blame the 350CX? Maybe I'll just add 1 or 2 12V to be monitored as well.

This is why I use the 350CC - 350CX combo.

If there is a fire in a bedroom for instance, the bedroom 350CC should independently signal the panel with its relay while simultaneously sending the 9V signal down the tandem line to trip the other alarm sounders throughout the house.
That tandem transmission (from ANY of the 350CCs) also trips the relay on the 350CX, which is also wired to the panel.
The 350CX will independently trip the panel if for some reason the zone 350CC relay fails.

The odds neither detector would trip the panel is much lower than just relying on a single detector.

Also, when they both trip it verifies there is a fire, since the tandem line was activated, rather than a fault in the zone wiring to the 350CC.

 

[Sandpiper]

I agree, yet another conversation that has kind of gotten carried away (but I have learned a lot, like always). Here is what I get out of it. There are only two known 120v options that have relays, GE and Kidde. They are photoelectric which is less sensitive and less prone to false alarms but since that is the only option that doesn't really matter. The GE relay will work on battery whereas the Kidde will not.

So for me, I am still where I started which is getting the GE350cx.

I agree with your conclusions on all points but one.....that is about photoelectric. Photoelectric detectors are not less sensitive, just different in response. But that is not all bad.....

The City of Palo Alto, California, among other cities across the US, are declaring ionization detectors illegal in new installs and requiring smokes older than 10 years to be replaced with photoelectric.

Take a look at these websites:

City of Palo Alto Smoke detector info

Barre City smoke detector info

That issue may be beside the point of the thread, but I agree that the 350CX seems to be the best choice for connecting to an alarm panel, even compared to 24 VDC 4-wire smokes, since so many local jurisdictions require the 120VAC powered. I like the idea of 120VAC powered smokes and many jurisdictions do too. There is plenty of literature available to support this line of thought.

Now if you come to the conclusion of using 120VAC detectors, and you want to connect to a monitored system without just adding a separate detector in the hallway, the choices are very limited.....The GE 350CX comes out on top. Now the only question is this: is it better to connect the 350CX to a monitored system and perhaps be in a "gray" area or just go with a separate detector in the hallway? I vote for the interconnection of the 350CX to the panel...as I don't see the line as gray at all. The interconnected system will be a better overall system.... i.e. to have a fully monitored code system, than to have a code un-monitored system and a separate monitored partial supplemental system.

 

[sonypoolplr]

I really appreciate everyone's response in this thread. Since I haven't had my smokes connected to the panel, I figure that if I do hook it up to the panel, and on the very small chance it doesn't work, and trigger the panel, as long as I get all of the other units to go off, and we all get out safely, then that is all that really matters. If we get the alarn panel to notify the alarm company, and get the fire department here, than that is a plus for me.

Again, thank you all for your responses.

 

[video321]

That is exactly the way I'm looking at this as well. Being they are photoelectric too, I don't have an issue with them being monitored either.
I also agree with Sandpiper as well, but might...just might connect a single 12V detector to the panel along with the 350s.