4 wire smoke connection

[gasbie]

Thanks again RAL. I don't understand what you meant by " the wiring for the detector-to-detector connections will be made back at the panel." I thought I start with smoke 1 with four wires to smoke 2, then another four wires from smoke2 to smoke 3 and so on. The last smoke will have the four wire back to the panel, two for power and two for a zone. So if I don't use the reverse relay, does that means that only one zone will get triggered at a time? I don't know if I'm making sense. thanks
 
 
Also, when I daisy chain smoke detectors, It will all be connected to only one zones at the panel, right?

 

[RAL]

Thanks again RAL. I don't understand what you meant by " the wiring for the detector-to-detector connections will be made back at the panel." I thought I start with smoke 1 with four wires to smoke 2, then another four wires from smoke2 to smoke 3 and so on. The last smoke will have the four wire back to the panel, two for power and two for a zone. So if I don't use the reverse relay, does that means that only one zone will get triggered at a time? I don't know if I'm making sense. thanks

 
I guess I'm not sure what you meant when you said you were going to add another 4 wires to each smoke detector.  I thought you were saying that you would run another home run 4-wire cable back to the panel, giving you 2 cables to each smoke.  If you do that, then you would make cable-to-cable connections back at the panel end to connect each smoke to the next one.  These connections don't actually go to terminals on the panel, they are just located near the panel because that's where the cables all end up.  That's what I was trying to say.
 
But if you can run new 4-wire cables directly from one smoke to another as you show in your drawing, that's fine too. Which way is easier depends on the construction of the house and what you have easy access to. 

 

[gasbie]

Thanks I will just run 4 wire cable from one smoke to another. Like I said, I don't have access to only one of them which i will make the first one like in the picture.
 
1) RAL, daisy chaining these smoke detectors means they will all be connected to one zone on the panel?
 
2) Also, will all smoke detector be powered off the AUX on the panel? or do i need a power distribution hardware to power them?

I guess I'm not sure what you meant when you said you were going to add another 4 wires to each smoke detector.  I thought you were saying that you would run another home run 4-wire cable back to the panel, giving you 2 cables to each smoke.  If you do that, then you would make cable-to-cable connections back at the panel end to connect each smoke to the next one.  These connections don't actually go to terminals on the panel, they are just located near the panel because that's where the cables all end up.  That's what I was trying to say.
 
But if you can run new 4-wire cables directly from one smoke to another as you show in your drawing, that's fine too. Which way is easier depends on the construction of the house and what you have easy access to. 

 

[RAL]

Thanks I will just run 4 wire cable from one smoke to another. Like I said, I don't have access to only one of them which i will make the first one like in the picture.
 
1) RAL, daisy chaining these smoke detectors means they will all be connected to one zone on the panel?
 
2) Also, will all smoke detector be powered off the AUX on the panel? or do i need a power distribution hardware to power them?

 
1. Yes, the daisy chain gets connected to a single zone.
 
2. You should power the smokes from the SAUX terminals on the M1 (I think I recall you said you have an M1).
SAUX is different from VAUX.  The SAUX power is switched, so that when you issue a "smoke reset" from a keypad, it will momentarily drop power to the smokes, which tells them to reset themselves.

 

[gasbie]

Sorry, yes I don have an ELK M1. Now, I get it. I guess there are too many mis-information out there about smoke wiring. When I remodeled my house, I wired my smoke based on what I read off the internet that you can homerun each smoke detector back to the panel and each smoke can have its own zone, that way if a zone tripped you can know which part of the house was violated. I guess that is a hypothetical thinking of wiring smoke detectors. In real life diasy chain is the way to good. Thanks RAL, I gained a lot from you on this issue. Big ups!!

1. Yes, the daisy chain gets connected to a single zone.
 
2. You should power the smokes from the SAUX terminals on the M1 (I think I recall you said you have an M1).
SAUX is different from VAUX.  The SAUX power is switched, so that when you issue a "smoke reset" from a keypad, it will momentarily drop power to the smokes, which tells them to reset themselves.

 

[RAL]

2) Also, will all smoke detector be powered off the AUX on the panel? or do i need a power distribution hardware to power them?

 
I was just thinking about the power that the 10 smokes could draw when in the alarm condition.  At 60 mA each, that adds up to 600 mA. 
 
The M1 can provide up to 1A (1000 mA) of power from its supply, so the smokes will require a substantial part of that.  Just make sure you do a power calculation and add up everything else that will draw power from the M1 (e.g. keypads, zone expanders, M1XEP, etc).  Elk has a current draw spreadsheet to help make this easy.
 
It's possible that you might need an additional power supply, and, if so, then you'll need to decide how to split up the load between the M1 and the extra supply.

 

[gasbie]

cool RAL. I do have altronix power supply. can i just use that to power the smoke, or use it to power other items such as keypad. How would you do this if you have  smoke detectors drawing 60ma each?

I was just thinking about the power that the 10 smokes could draw when in the alarm condition.  At 60 mA each, that adds up to 600 mA. 
 
The M1 can provide up to 1A (1000 mA) of power from its supply, so the smokes will require a substantial part of that.  Just make sure you do a power calculation and add up everything else that will draw power from the M1 (e.g. keypads, zone expanders, M1XEP, etc).  Elk has a current draw spreadsheet to help make this easy.
 
It's possible that you might need an additional power supply, and, if so, then you'll need to decide how to split up the load between the M1 and the extra supply.

 

[RAL]

cool RAL. I do have altronix power supply. can i just use that to power the smoke, or use it to power other items such as keypad. How would you do this if you have  smoke detectors drawing 60ma each?

 
If you have just a few keypads (say 2 M1KPs, or up to 3 M1KP2s), I think you should be ok powering the keypads and smokes from the M1 and placing everything else on the Altronix.  In non-alarm state, the load on the M1's power supply will be modest (little more than the load of the KPs), and in alarm mode, it will be right at the 1A limit.
 
If you choose to power the smokes from the Altronix power supply, that's ok, but it adds another slight complication.  The SAUX power from the M1 is switched to provide a way to reset the smokes after an alarm.  But the Altronix power isn't switched.  So you'll need to run the power from the Altronix to the smokes through a relay that is in turn powered from the SAUX terminals on the M1.  That way, when the M1 issues a smoke reset, the relay will open, interrupting the power from the Altronix to the smokes.
 
Maybe DEL will chime in with some of his thoughts on the best way to divide up the load.

 

[gasbie]

I think I have an idea of what you saying RAL, could you look at the attached pic and tell me if it follows your idea. Thanks

If you have just a few keypads (say 2 M1KPs, or up to 3 M1KP2s), I think you should be ok powering the keypads and smokes from the M1 and placing everything else on the Altronix.  In non-alarm state, the load on the M1's power supply will be modest (little more than the load of the KPs), and in alarm mode, it will be right at the 1A limit.
 
If you choose to power the smokes from the Altronix power supply, that's ok, but it adds another slight complication.  The SAUX power from the M1 is switched to provide a way to reset the smokes after an alarm.  But the Altronix power isn't switched.  So you'll need to run the power from the Altronix to the smokes through a relay that is in turn powered from the SAUX terminals on the M1.  That way, when the M1 issues a smoke reset, the relay will open, interrupting the power from the Altronix to the smokes.
 
Maybe DEL will chime in with some of his thoughts on the best way to divide up the load.

 

 

[RAL]

I think I have an idea of what you saying RAL, could you look at the attached pic and tell me if it follows your idea. Thanks

 
That's basically it, but you want to connect the Altronix +12V through the COM and NO terminals on the 924. The NO terminal is open when there is no power to the relay, and closed when power is applied.

 

[gasbie]

So do you mean something like this diagram. I moved things around. If this diagram is correct that it means that at normal operation which is NC, there will be no power supplied to the smoke detectors, but

That's basically it, but you want to connect the Altronix +12V through the COM and NO terminals on the 924. The NO terminal is open when there is no power to the relay, and closed when power is applied, then there is continuity and it supplied power to the smoke detectors. Is my logic right here. 

 

 

[RAL]

So do you mean something like this diagram. I moved things around. If this diagram is correct that it means that at normal operation which is NC, there will be no power supplied to the smoke detectors, but

 
It looks like maybe something got lost from the end of your text.
 
Your revised diagram is correct.
 
In a normal non-alarm state, the M1 will be putting out 12V on the SAUX terminals, so the 924 relay will be powered, and the N.O. contact will be connected to the COM terminal, providing power from the Altronix to the smokes.
 
When the M1 issues a smoke reset, power will momentarily drop on the SAUX terminals, allowing the relay to open, thereby dropping power to smokes and resetting them.

 

[gasbie]

that's great RAL. Thanks so much for your help and education. if i need more help, i will let you know.

 

[Del91574]

Depending on the Altronix and if there's a daughter board, you could drive a fire drop from the M1 into the Altronix, but assuming a stupid PS with nothing else, then it's a relay run off the switched power of the M1 to facilitate the reset.

 

[gasbie]

Depending on the Altronix and if there's a daughter board, you could drive a fire drop from the M1 into the Altronix, but assuming a stupid PS with nothing else, then it's a relay run off the switched power of the M1 to facilitate the reset.

Hello DEL,
I don't understand what you meant by fire drop. Could you please elaborate more on that. Thanks