68 Camaro starting problem

[mikefamig]

Goggling read that the heat-soak (too much heat was being absorbed by the starter solenoid) problem is an issue many times because the heat shield has been removed.  Someone suggested replacing it with a mini starter.  Other folks have seen this with the heat from headers and proximity to the starter.
 
Here is a mechanics DIY list to fix.
 
1. Install a heat shield
2. Install a high-torque mini-starter
3. Install an external starter solenoid
 
Here is an old trick I learned from a starter re-builder friend...

I had the same problem with my 67 396 car.
The solution was to install a secondary solenoid (slave solenoid)
I mounted it with an oil pan bolt above the starter location.

Thanks Pete, I've seen those solutions and plan to install a heat shield. The replacement relay switch is a nice solution after giving up on getting the stock setup to work and I'm not there yet. I would do that before tearing the car apart to replace wiring harnesses.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Some amount of voltage drop is to be expected, that's just how wire gauge and current draw works.  The thinner the wire, the shorter the distance before you start having voltage drop.  12ga isn't uncommon in cars for this kind of thing.  Provided, of course, that it's not internally corroded after so much time and exposure.  
 
Here's a thought, how new is your battery? 

Good though but I have two good batteries and a smart charger that shows them both to be in good  shape. If the battery was seak then the voltage would drop right at the battery terminals when the load is applied and that does not happen.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

I have a theory that the spring could have been the cause of this altogether.
 
The solenoid has a purple 12v lead that energizes when you turn the key but it also has the positive battery cable attached to it directly from the positive battery post. When working properly the purple wire energizes the solenoid magnet which switches the solenoid quickly connecting the battery cable current to the starter and everything else. So the circuit gets a big current boost from a 4awg cable as soon as that solenoid reaches the end of it's stroke and switches the battery cable current into the circuit.
 
If the spring prevents the solenoid magnet from completing the full length of it's stroke the high current battery cable does not get switched into the circuit and the purple wire just keeps the load of the solenoid on the starter circuit and the voltage declines as the coil in the magnet saturates.
 
Mike.

 

[pete_c]

Do you have headers on the automobile?

 

[mikefamig]

Do you have headers on the automobile?

No Pete, no headers but the solenoid is almost touching the exhaust manifold. I have to choose and order a heat shield and get it installed.

 

[mikefamig]

Here is an over simplistic diagram of the system but it displays what I was saying about the battery cable.

 

[mikefamig]

I wouldn't call it a cure, so much as a work around.  The starter isn't getting enough voltage to engage, and by putting in a weaker spring, you allowed it to engage with the lower voltage.   My guess is that it will work for now, even for weeks or months, but whatever the real problem is will get worse over time until the weaker spring won't be good enough, either.

RAL
 
Also if you are correct and it does get worse then maybe it'll be easier to pinpoint. I'm considering putting a pushbutton hidden under the dashboard so if it does fail on the  road I won't be stuck.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

Also if you are correct and it does get worse then maybe it'll be easier to pinpoint. I'm considering putting a pushbutton hidden under the dashboard so if it does fail on the  road I won't be stuck.

 
Yes, if it does get worse, that very well could make it easier to find the next time around. 
 
I can't help but think that if it used to work with the aftermarket spring, but doesn't work now, then something has changed that is reducing the voltage to the starter.  Springs usually don't get stronger with age.
 
One thing I've found with measuring voltages in cars is that dirt and oxidation on the screws and connectors often make it difficult to get an accurate reading.  So if you haven't cleaned up all the surfaces you're trying to measure through, that might have something to do with the strange readings.  I have a set of probes with needle sharp points that make it easier to pierce through the crud, but even then, that's not always good enough and I end up having to disassemble and clean them  the connections thoroughly.  But if your readings are truly accurate, then I think I'd start replacing wires.   Or, another thing to try would be to disconnect one end of each wire and make a resistance reading of the wire to see if it is abnormal.

 

[mikefamig]

Yes, if it does get worse, that very well could make it easier to find the next time around. 
 
I can't help but think that if it used to work with the aftermarket spring, but doesn't work now, then something has changed that is reducing the voltage to the starter.  Springs usually don't get stronger with age.

I didn't say that it ever worked correctly with that spring and for the life of me I just can't remember. Two winters ago I rebuilt the engine and I think that I may have installed the new stater and solenoid at that time. I can't say that it ever worked with that spring. I askedc my wife when the problem began adn she can't remember either.We built the new garage in 2011 and changed the engine the following year and the Elk installation has been going on and other stuff and I think that it may have never worked with that spring.

One thing I've found with measuring voltages in cars is that dirt and oxidation on the screws and connectors often make it difficult to get an accurate reading.  So if you haven't cleaned up all the surfaces you're trying to measure through, that might have something to do with the strange readings.  I have a set of probes with needle sharp points that make it easier to pierce through the crud, but even then, that's not always good enough and I end up having to disassemble and clean them  the connections thoroughly.  But if your readings are truly accurate, then I think I'd start replacing wires.   Or, another thing to try would be to disconnect one end of each wire and make a resistance reading of the wire to see if it is abnormal.

I have tested sections of teh circuit and found zero resistance under no-load condition.
 
When the problem occurred I tested voltage at points that were increasingly further away from teh pos battery always using the negative battery post as the reference.
 
Here is what I got
 
voltages

at battery 12.1vdc
at horn relay 11.5vdc
at alternator 11.5vdc
at neutral safety switch 9.3vdc
at starter 8.9vdc
 
I'm thinking that these voltages are acceptable if you consider that the solenoid is not switching and it's magnet is fully saturated and loading down the circuit. Am I thinking right? 9vdc is not that bad for a 12v lead acid battery under that load. I haven't checked but I'm told that it is a 30 amp load or so with even higher surge.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Do you have headers on the automobile?

Pete
 
I ordered a heat shield
 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-3678?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwndqrBRC16IyeqPicp3ASJAB-vB-cNIbtAv1cXfbcVmEMAng-e5OnETYcFz-G1IAqvRaukhoClofw_wcB

 

[pete_c]

Are the old heat shield bolts on the car?
 
You got me motivated to try to start the old car (haven't touched it now in 5-6 years)
 
Just a few minutes ago spoke to my old friend (with the FIrebird).  Geez he lost his CC cable on Friday; called it in and they said it would be more than a week to get it fixed.

 

[mikefamig]

Are the old heat shield bolts on the car?

 
Glad you asked that. I dug around in my old parts and found two original OEM heat shields and can't see how they bolt onto the car. I think that some chevy engines must have had mounting holes in the engine block or the exhaust manifolds but I can't see how they would fit to my Camaro. There are so many old cars that went through our house of four gearhead kids that these could have come from any one of many 50's or 60's chevy's.
 
Mike.
 
 

You got me motivated to try to start the old car (haven't touched it now in 5-6 years)
 
Just a few minutes ago spoke to my old friend (with the FIrebird).  Geez he lost his CC cable on Friday; called it in and they said it would be more than a week to get it fixed.

 

[pete_c]

It sounds like you are on your way to fixing your automobile. 
 
Friend with '67 Firebird will be stopping by in the next few days.  I will take pictures of his automobile.
 
Next door neighbor in the 1960's purchased a '67 Z-28 for their son who was driving a little tiny Fiat at the time (like a toy).  He disassembled the car in the driveway on a lark and put it back together again.  I remember driving it once and how stiff the clutch was.  It was fast. 
 
Personally got in to MGB's and Spitfires in the 60's.  Recall horsing with one old MGB that I purchased running mostly for parts.  One day I had it put together and it was driveable, except that the seats were really attached too well and I had tied the hood down.  Geez my sister and her friends wanted to go for a ride one day and I said OK.  Well they sat on the back of the car while we went for a little joy ride.  The hood went flying off the vehicle, missed their heads by just few inches and soared up some 50 feet hit the ground and didn't get too damaged.  The scare convinced me to make the automobile a bit more road worthy.
 
Here I owned a '77 Pontiac Trans Am purchased new, drove it about 2 years then went to driving a tricked out Ford Econoline with a Windsor engine.  I did also have a Volkswagon super beetle which I kept for some 6 months purchasing it new and ended up selling it for more than the dealer price I paid for it.  Never figured out the attraction to the beetle.  It did float on water though.   The Ford was too tall for my garage back then.  I ended up with a Volkswagon Scirocco around 1985 which was a bit better on gas than the Ford and Pontiac at the time.  I did purchase a second one used for spare parts for the first one.  The Trans Am sat for a while though before I sold it.  I do remember goofing around a bit thru the desert in Nevada racing my dad while he drive a boat (Biarritz Caddie back then).  The caddie was like a living room on wheels.  It was quick though at the time while the Trans Am was slow at the time.
 
In the late 1960's / early 1970's a friend did put a small block Chevy engine and trans into a Triumph Spitfire making it a bit faster than the TR-6 / GT6.
 
The Triumph Spitfire trade name today is owned by BMW.
 

I dug around in my old parts and found two original OEM heat shields and can't see how they bolt onto the car.

 
Over the years (1990's) I was privy to get involved with the automotive industry (well and IT).  I did see line assembly line / manufacturing changes occurying in vivo for a few automotive builds (start ups).  Part of my IT stuff related to walking the assembly line which took a good part of my day.  It did sort of make make the automobiles a bit unique yet very similiar and the changes were typically not noticed.

 

[mikefamig]

It sounds like you are on your way to fixing your automobile. 
 
Friend with '67 Firebird will be stopping by in the next few days.  I will take pictures of his automobile.
 
Next door neighbor in the 1960's purchased a '67 Z-28 for their son who was driving a little tiny Fiat at the time (like a toy).  He disassembled the car in the driveway on a lark and put it back together again.  I remember driving it once and how stiff the clutch was.  It was fast. 
 
Personally got in to MGB's and Spitfires in the 60's.  Recall horsing with one old MGB that I purchased running mostly for parts.  One day I had it put together and it was driveable, except that the seats were really attached too well and I had tied the hood down.  Geez my sister and her friends wanted to go for a ride one day and I said OK.  Well they sat on the back of the car while we went for a little joy ride.  The hood went flying off the vehicle, missed their heads by just few inches and soared up some 50 feet hit the ground and didn't get too damaged.  The scare convinced me to make the automobile a bit more road worthy.
 
Here I owned a '77 Pontiac Trans Am purchased new, drove it about 2 years then went to driving a tricked out Ford Econoline with a Windsor engine.  I did also have a Volkswagon super beetle which I kept for some 6 months purchasing it new and ended up selling it for more than the dealer price I paid for it.  Never figured out the attraction to the beetle.  It did float on water though.   The Ford was too tall for my garage back then.  I ended up with a Volkswagon Scirocco around 1985 which was a bit better on gas than the Ford and Pontiac at the time.  I did purchase a second one used for spare parts for the first one.  The Trans Am sat for a while though before I sold it.  I do remember goofing around a bit thru the desert in Nevada racing my dad while he drive a boat (Biarritz Caddie back then).  The caddie was like a living room on wheels.  It was quick though at the time while the Trans Am was slow at the time.
 
In the late 1960's / early 1970's a friend did put a small block Chevy engine and trans into a Triumph Spitfire making it a bit faster than the TR-6 / GT6.
 
The Triumph Spitfire trade name today is owned by BMW.
 
 
Over the years (1990's) I was privy to get involved with the automotive industry (well and IT).  I did see line assembly line / manufacturing changes occurying in vivo for a few automotive builds (start ups).  Part of my IT stuff related to walking the assembly line which took a good part of my day.  It did sort of make make the automobiles a bit unique yet very similiar and the changes were typically not noticed.

 

It sounds like you are on your way to fixing your automobile. 
 
Friend with '67 Firebird will be stopping by in the next few days.  I will take pictures of his automobile.
 
Next door neighbor in the 1960's purchased a '67 Z-28 for their son who was driving a little tiny Fiat at the time (like a toy).  He disassembled the car in the driveway on a lark and put it back together again.  I remember driving it once and how stiff the clutch was.  It was fast. 
 
Personally got in to MGB's and Spitfires in the 60's.  Recall horsing with one old MGB that I purchased running mostly for parts.  One day I had it put together and it was driveable, except that the seats were really attached too well and I had tied the hood down.  Geez my sister and her friends wanted to go for a ride one day and I said OK.  Well they sat on the back of the car while we went for a little joy ride.  The hood went flying off the vehicle, missed their heads by just few inches and soared up some 50 feet hit the ground and didn't get too damaged.  The scare convinced me to make the automobile a bit more road worthy.
 
Here I owned a '77 Pontiac Trans Am purchased new, drove it about 2 years then went to driving a tricked out Ford Econoline with a Windsor engine.  I did also have a Volkswagon super beetle which I kept for some 6 months purchasing it new and ended up selling it for more than the dealer price I paid for it.  Never figured out the attraction to the beetle.  It did float on water though.   The Ford was too tall for my garage back then.  I ended up with a Volkswagon Scirocco around 1985 which was a bit better on gas than the Ford and Pontiac at the time.  I did purchase a second one used for spare parts for the first one.  The Trans Am sat for a while though before I sold it.  I do remember goofing around a bit thru the desert in Nevada racing my dad while he drive a boat (Biarritz Caddie back then).  The caddie was like a living room on wheels.  It was quick though at the time while the Trans Am was slow at the time.
 
In the late 1960's / early 1970's a friend did put a small block Chevy engine and trans into a Triumph Spitfire making it a bit faster than the TR-6 / GT6.
 
The Triumph Spitfire trade name today is owned by BMW.
 
 
Over the years (1990's) I was privy to get involved with the automotive industry (well and IT).  I did see line assembly line / manufacturing changes occurying in vivo for a few automotive builds (start ups).  Part of my IT stuff related to walking the assembly line which took a good part of my day.  It did sort of make make the automobiles a bit unique yet very similiar and the changes were typically not noticed.

 
It's fun remembering the glory days and the ones that weren't so glorious too. When i think about all of the toys and all of teh stupid things that I lived through I wonder how I survived it and then I want to go back and do it all over again. I'm sitting in the garage right now having a couple of beers and enjoying the fact aht the Camaro has been good for two days, the lawn mower is fixed and the Elk is behaving well after having a problem with the UPB lighting today.
 
The Camaro was getting me down this month becasue I was struggling with it but then I remember that I love this stuff.
 
Go start your old car!

 

[mikefamig]

Does anyone here know of any way to improve an electrical connection like this in the way of a good conductive gel or something that I can add to it. If I could get to it better I would tin the connector with solder but it's just too hard to reach and to remove the wire end from the plastic connector.

I sprayed with electronic cleaner and scrubbed with a toothbrush and it didn't seem to help so I'm thinking of maybe a chemical solution to the problem. Any ideas?

Mike.