Advice on updating hardware

[picta]

What issues has your friend run into?  Is there anything he's wanted to do and couldn't, because of the lack of a neutral?  Is there anything he's wished for that's not conveniently supported by the Caseta system, so he feels locked in?
 
Tonight, a guy on the openHAB forum says that he has been working on a binding for some Zigbee USB dongles.  Said he plans on getting back to actively working on it in a few weeks.  I'm trying to get more info from him on whether some of the specific examples I've seen on Amazon will work.

 
The solution in place is tied to HomeKit, so this is a binding constraint. My friend does not wish to have complex automation rules or integration with other technologies, so this setup works well. I have not tried the Lutron's pro hub that claims to integrate with some other systems (like Elk).
 
Over the years a lot of people claimed they were working on zigbee integration. The result is always the same: at best, SOME dongles will be able to control SOME devices. Unless you can code and willing to reverse engineer the zigbee messages, it will be very restricted.

 

[Mighty]

I went back to your original post and I'm not entirely clear on the wiring.  You mention 2 wire, so what you see in switch boxes is two wire only (no ground, usually green or bare) and in the light fixtures is the same (no ground), as well?
 
Some very old circuits can be wired that way, 2 conductor with paper or cloth wrap.  Sometimes if you are lucky there will be a metal, normally grounded, conduit.
 
Either of these types is a hot and neutral 2 wire setup.  Newer code normally requires 3 wires, hot-neutral-ground, and this would normally go to the switch, with the hot being switched.

When I said two-wire, I meant no-neutral.  I said that because I don't know the terminology very well.  This house was built in 1973, so, it abides by reasonably modern codes.  But not the latest, that require neutral at the switch.  I do remember wiring in the ground when I installed my switches.
 
I know I haven't seen red tape on any of the wires.  To tell you the truth, I can't remember if there was black tape on any of them.  I installed those X-10 switches over 10 years ago.  Hopefully I didn't pull it off and discard it, if it was there.
 
I'll try to dig up a good primer on residential wiring.

 

[Mighty]

The solution in place is tied to HomeKit, so this is a binding constraint. My friend does not wish to have complex automation rules or integration with other technologies, so this setup works well. I have not tried the Lutron's pro hub that claims to integrate with some other systems (like Elk).
 
Over the years a lot of people claimed they were working on zigbee integration. The result is always the same: at best, SOME dongles will be able to control SOME devices. Unless you can code and willing to reverse engineer the zigbee messages, it will be very restricted.

I have some ideas on some rules I'd like to set up, so it sounds like HomeKit is not a good fit, for me.
 
It may be that this Zigbee endeavor will fizzle like the others.  OTOH, it may be that Zigbee has just reached a tipping point.  The fact that it's being used by multiple name brands in shipping products gives me some hope.
 
From the short description I got over on the other forum, it sounds like openHAB is designed with the idea of continuously updating their database of messages and codes.  If they've designed it right, then at a high level, the Zigbee database system should talk to the rest of the program in the same way that their current Z-Wave database system does.  They should plug in right next to each other.
 
I'm trying to get ahold of the work-in-progress so I can see where they're at.  And, maybe even contribute, a little.

 

[cobra]

When I said two-wire, I meant no-neutral.  I said that because I don't know the terminology very well.  This house was built in 1973, so, it abides by reasonably modern codes.  But not the latest, that require neutral at the switch.  I do remember wiring in the ground when I installed my switches.
 
I know I haven't seen red tape on any of the wires.  To tell you the truth, I can't remember if there was black tape on any of them.  I installed those X-10 switches over 10 years ago.  Hopefully I didn't pull it off and discard it, if it was there.
 
I'll try to dig up a good primer on residential wiring.

 
Yeah, I was really just asking what you had.  If it's hot to the switch, then you have neutral in the box already, but may have no ground (which may or may not cause a problem with some automation switches.)
 
If you have hot in the light fixture, then the switch could just be a loop (not really hot or neutral, but a switch loop, like CRRC was mentioning.)  That's less likely to be workable with an automation switch, unless you do something like CRRC said, where you put a controllable device at the fixture.  Then you can re-wire the pair to the switch to be hot-neutral for a smart device.  (And do some other things that certainly aren't to code, but would be no more dangerous than the existing setup...)

 

[Dean Roddey]

Zigbee is highly unlikely to go away. I would imagine that it will supplant Z-Wave once it gets enough traction to get more economies of scale. It's a superior technology, that targets the same sorts of problems, and is used by lots of companies in a commercial type of environment (and by public utilities), so it will have both commercial and residential and DIY markets available to it, whereas Z-Wave is pretty much purely residential and is only winning now because it's cheaper and came out first (actually they split off from the Zigbee alliance and went out with a less fully baked architecture in order to get there first.) That worked for them initially of course, but it may ultimately make them vulnerable, because they now are dragging lots of evolutionary baggage behind them, and have ended up in a more piecemeal type of situation.
 
What will be important is more HA profile compliant (i.e. non-proprietary profile) Zigbee gear coming online, and getting more economies of scale going.

 

[pete_c]

Here the bathroom library includes the Timelife series book on DIY home electric from the 1960's along with the tablet.
 


Doing new old commercial stuff in 80-90's it was installed aluminum which was an issue.
 
Really not many folks look at this stuff cuz it always worked except when needing to install an automated switch.   IE: the electric was installed statically never to be changed cuz it just worked.
 
Personally still a conduit person.

 

[picta]

What will be important is more HA profile compliant (i.e. non-proprietary profile) Zigbee gear coming online, and getting more economies of scale going.

 
Yes, still waiting for that to happen ^_^

 

[Mighty]

Yeah, I was really just asking what you had.  If it's hot to the switch, then you have neutral in the box already, but may have no ground (which may or may not cause a problem with some automation switches.)
 
If you have hot in the light fixture, then the switch could just be a loop (not really hot or neutral, but a switch loop, like CRRC was mentioning.)  That's less likely to be workable with an automation switch, unless you do something like CRRC said, where you put a controllable device at the fixture.  Then you can re-wire the pair to the switch to be hot-neutral for a smart device.  (And do some other things that certainly aren't to code, but would be no more dangerous than the existing setup...)

 
I had X-10 switches in there for years, and they worked fairly well while I had incandescents in the sockets.  So, doesn't that imply hot to the switch?
 
I looked at CRRC's cookbook, and I looked at the wiring diagrams on the product page.  I have a clue, so I was able to follow generally what he described.  I will take the time to educate myself some more, before I actually attempt that, though.
 
Dean, that's interesting about Z-Wave splitting off from Zigbee.  I hadn't heard that before.
 
I just pulled the trigger and ordered a coupla light bulbs, a lamp module, an appliance module, and a coupla switches, and a dongle in each of Z-Wave and Zigbee flavors.  I may get some Insteon devices, if I can figure out which PC interface I want.  I'm going to futz around with those and see if I can find some way to control them that I'm happy with.

 

[pete_c]

I had X-10 switches in there for years, and they worked fairly well while I had incandescents in the sockets.  So, doesn't that imply hot to the switch?
 
Historically (having started to play with this stuff in the late 1970's)I used the X10 sockets for lamps in a few places where I didn't want to utilize automated switches.  They worked fine for me.  Today I do not utilize these or automated bulbs.
 
The above noted really to get an understanding / feel for new technologies I would try each one without a substantial investment and see what fits.
 
Here today I talk X10, UPB, Zigbee and Z-Wave only. 
 
I have over the years updated my automated wall switches to X10, then Insteon (and used both X10 and Insteon) and lately it has been UPB.
 
The easiest way to play with all of the technologies is to utilize software as stated above and not get stifled by using firmware.
 
If you are in to Linux and specifically the Raspberry Pi 2 (a tinker box) then try the free stuff or trial stuff out there first.  See if it works for you.
 
Recently I have seen a Zigbee GPIO module for the Rasberry Pi.  You can if you want connect one to an Rasberry Pi and utilize a ZWave Plus stick on the same box.  You can also add serial PIMs to the RPi2 like an X10 CM11A (old) if you want.

 

[Mighty]

Being a hardcore geek, I have a coupla circa-2005 XP computers lying around.  I'm going to start with free software on those to act as the brain while I'm playing around with this stuff.  Depending on the software I try out, I may switch one over to Linux.  If that old hardware gives up the ghost then I'll probably replace it with one of the Raspberry Pis.

 

[pete_c]

Yes; 32bit XP should work fine.
 
Goofing around here installed HomeGenie on a Ubuntu 14.04 32 bit tabletop touchscreen running on an Intel Atom with 512Mb of Ram.   Works fine.

 

[Mighty]

I did not see any mention of using "in-box" modules located at the lamp location (where the neutral is) .

 
I think this is the key I was looking for.  For a few fixtures I have in mind, I'll use the in-box module.  Then I'm just going to pull the switch entirely and wire it closed, and the put a blank on that spot on the wall.  Then, I'm going to put a wireless controller in place of a wired switch.  This will be especially nice if I can get Zigbee working, because I found a very inexpensive one.
 
One location I will certainly do that is my vanity, where I have those G25 bulbs.  I can decide on the others piecemeal.
 
This will be great.  This is actually what I've wanted to do for a while.  I just didn't realize I had neutral at my fixtures.
 
Drake