Auxiliary Power Supply Mounting Location

[johngalt]

Greetings,
 
I have a flush mounted 28 inch Elk can in the back of a coat closet.
 
I bought a AL600ULX Altronix 6 amp auxiliary power supply, but I don't know where to mount it.
 
Can I flush mount this as well or is it only surface mounted?  I have some extra room in my Elk can, but I don't think I can mount it in there as there will be 120V going to the Altronix, right?  Could I install it in the Attic?  I have spray foam insulation, but it should still get pretty warm up there.  
 
Any other thoughts?
 
Thanks!
 
 

 

[mikefamig]

Greetings,
 
I have a flush mounted 28 inch Elk can in the back of a coat closet.
 
I bought a AL600ULX Altronix 6 amp auxiliary power supply, but I don't know where to mount it.
 
Can I flush mount this as well or is it only surface mounted?  I have some extra room in my Elk can, but I don't think I can mount it in there as there will be 120V going to the Altronix, right?  Could I install it in the Attic?  I have spray foam insulation, but it should still get pretty warm up there.  
 
Any other thoughts?
 
Thanks!

 
I flush mounted mine in it's own box that Altronix supplied with it. I talked to Altronix about flush mounting it and even though it is designed to be surface mounted they assured me that it would be fine. Mine is 4 amp and has been flush mounted for about a year now and it does not seem very warm when I open the door on the box. It is mounted in the wall just below my Elk box at the top of the staircase that goes to my basement so it is a comfortable climate. I did not trim around the face of the box so there is a small air space to the left and right of the box between it and the wall studs. It looks unfinished but my wife hasn't protested yet and I'm good with it.
 
Of course heat can have a negative effect on it's lifespan but I'm willing to chance it.
 
Mike.
 
Mike.

 

[johngalt]

Thanks. I called Altronix and they said it definitely needs to breath, but I didn't press.

Typically I will be using less than an amp from the 6 amps. But I just wanted the reserve current for the WSV, etc. so the power supply will not be taxed. Besides, my wife likes to keep it like a meat locker in our house so that should help.

 

[Del91574]

Mike, those Altronix need air. They're not switching PS', they're linear so they're going to heat up a good deal, both the transformer and sink on the unit. That's why the enclosures have the sides perforated. I'm guessing because you're really not pushing it hard that you're not experiencing the heat. I'd be shocked that they said you could recess and block those.
 
For the OP, you need to provide clearance for working on the 120VAC portion of the supply, but you can run an appropriately sized whip to the other enclosure. IMHO, I don't think the 3" the can would stick out from the wall is even in a big deal to necessitate a flush mount solution.

 

[RAL]

Mike, those Altronix need air. They're not switching PS', they're linear so they're going to heat up a good deal, both the transformer and sink on the unit. That's why the enclosures have the sides perforated. I'm guessing because you're really not pushing it hard that you're not experiencing the heat. I'd be shocked that they said you could recess and block those.
 
For the OP, you need to provide clearance for working on the 120VAC portion of the supply, but you can run an appropriately sized whip to the other enclosure. IMHO, I don't think the 3" the can would stick out from the wall is even in a big deal to necessitate a flush mount solution.

 
 
@DEL - The AL400 and AL600 power supplies are switching power supplies, not linear.  Still, even a switch mode power supply does generate some heat, and the ventilation slots on the side of the enclosure are there for good reason.  Cutting off the ventilation might not cause a fire, but the buildup of heat could shorten the life of the components, especially the batteries.
 
I agree with you that surface mounting is the right way to go.

 

[johngalt]

As always thanks everyone for the advice. I will surface mount it.

All the knockouts on the Altronic can are on the top, bottom and sides. I was wanting to hide all my wires of course. My plan was to run 120V in. I was going to have 14AWG run from the DC output of the Altronix to my flush mounted Elk can.

Can I drill a hole in the back of the can and run my wires through there? Different holes for AC and DC of course.

If not how else can I surface mount and hide my wires?

Thanks

 

[Del91574]

@ RAL, depends on which model you get, whether or not there's a separate transformer to step the voltage down (28VAC) or if it's built into the power supply board itself. There's a bunch of flavors and ways to order them.
 
@ John, you'd need to pay attention to the separation of the batteries and the 120VAC....it's doable, but you'd still need to pay attention and the holes would need to be bushed and where the need to connect, with that AWG, there's really no real estate. I'd suggest using a couple pieces of flex or conduit fittings (jakes or pulling-el's) to get into the wall and maintain the separation. Plan on using the left side of the can wherever possible. Don't use the bottom for KO's. I wouldn't use the "attractive" spot on the right side of the enclosure. Leave that for whatever other Altronix gear you're going to end up with (it will happen), usually distro boards.

 

[mikefamig]

I just took a look at the specs on the al400ulx and the operating temperature is 0 - 49 Celsius which is 120 F. I'll keep an eye on it but I just stuck my hand in there and it is perfectly cool to the touch. And no I am not pushing it. Right now it is powering the xep, 1 m1xin, 1 m1x0ovr and 1 motion so less than 2 amps. Also it is not completely closed in. There is an inch or so on each side between the wall studs that allow it to breath a little.
 
Mike.

 

[johngalt]

I saw another recent post on auxiliary power supplies and it prompted another question.
 
For power distribution I was planning on Elk PD9  to wire up my sensors and put one or two sensors on each output of the PD9.  These are glass break, motion, and water sensors so the 250mA limit and PTC  of the PD9 seems appropriate.
 
However, in the other thread the people mentioned mounting the power distribution in the aux power supply.  For wiring purposes this would not be ideal for me.  I assume I can mount the PD9 in the Elk can and then run the DC output  Altronix board to the LPD and then to PD8CB all mounted in the Altronix case.  I will then run a 16AWG or so wires from the PD8CB in the power supply can about 10 feet to the Elk can.  That way each PD9 gets its own supply from the PD8CB.  Higher output devices like my Water shutoff valve would get their own connection to the PD8CB.
 
I also won't forget to tie the DC negative of the Elk to the Altronix.
 
Any comments?  Is the the PD8CB redundant?

 

[mikefamig]

I think that it depends on how many outputs you need, whether you prefer circuit breaker or fuse and at how much power each output. Having both the pd9 and the altronix pd8cb does seem redundant. I would list the power requirements and work backwards from there based on the number of outputs and their [power rating.
 
Mike.

 

[RAL]

I saw another recent post on auxiliary power supplies and it prompted another question.
 
For power distribution I was planning on Elk PD9  to wire up my sensors and put one or two sensors on each output of the PD9.  These are glass break, motion, and water sensors so the 250mA limit and PTC  of the PD9 seems appropriate.
 
However, in the other thread the people mentioned mounting the power distribution in the aux power supply.  For wiring purposes this would not be ideal for me.  I assume I can mount the PD9 in the Elk can and then run the DC output  Altronix board to the LPD and then to PD8CB all mounted in the Altronix case.  I will then run a 16AWG or so wires from the PD8CB in the power supply can about 10 feet to the Elk can.  That way each PD9 gets its own supply from the PD8CB.  Higher output devices like my Water shutoff valve would get their own connection to the PD8CB.
 
I also won't forget to tie the DC negative of the Elk to the Altronix.
 
Any comments?  Is the the PD8CB redundant?

 
There's nothing wrong with connecting the PD9 in the Elk can to one of the outputs of the PD8 in the Altronix can, though as you say, it would be redundant levels of protection.  Another way to do it would be to wire the PD9 directly to the output of the power supply board, along with the PD8, so that the power supply feeds both boards in parallel.
 
You didn't mention which model of power supply you have, but if you wire the PD9 directly to the output of the power supply, those wires may not be power limited, and you should treat them accordingly (e.g. keep them at least 1/4" away from other power limited wires.  If you have an AL400, the output is classified as power limited, so no problem.  An AL600 is classified as non-power limited, so wiring precautions should be observed.
 
You mentioned the Low Battery Disconnect (LPD).  It wasn't clear to me where you intend to connect it.  It should be connected between the battery and the power supply board, not between the power supply board and the distribution board.  The reason is that if you put it between the power supply output and the load, when it disconnects, the power supply itself will still be drawing some current from the battery. Given enough time, it will completely discharge the battery.
 
The LPD instructions aren't particularly clear on which way to connect it.  The input side of the LPD should be connected to the power supply's battery outputs, and the LPD output side connects to the battery.

 

[johngalt]

@RAL  - Thanks!
 
 You are correct that I was planning on wiring the LPD incorrectly.  I had read the manual and it sounded funny, but I was trying to be good and follow the instructions. You clarified things for me.
 
I do have a AL600.  
 
 
 
I am not even close to using the 6 Amps of the AL600.  Based on the Elk Spreadsheet I am at 1.3A.  I then also plan on running my Greenfield ASV-100 water shutoff valve which can use 2.5A and some sort of cellular uplink which can use another 1-2.  But the WSV and the cellular would just use that current as a peak value, but obviously I want to be able to cover it and some breathing room.
 
6 x Blue Line Gen2 TriTech Motion Detectors (10mA each)
7 x Visonic Glasstech (25mA each)
10 x GRI 2600 Water Sensors (12mA each)
3 x M1KPNAV
2 x M1XIN
1 x M1XRFTW
2 x Elk PD9
 
I found your post regarding power limited vs. non power limited. http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/28806-power-limited-circuit-vs-non-limited/#entry239474  I also do have the AL600 so I do need to worry about non power limited wiring. If I read your post correctly if I installed a PD8 in the Altronix can and then had one wire to the WSV, one wire to the cellular uplink, and then one to each PD9 I believe I would just need to worry about the non power limited wiring from the AL600 board to the PD9 in the Altronix can.  If I wire the PD9s in parallel to the PD8 then I believe that wiring might still be considered non power limited...or maybe I am just confusing myself.
 
I would much rather this then worry about the 1/4 inch separation all the way to the Elk can.
 
Thanks again!

 

[RAL]

I would much rather this then worry about the 1/4 inch separation all the way to the Elk can.

 
I believe that one way around the 1/4" separation distance requirement is to separate the non-power limited wiring using a barrier, such as split loom tubing.  A small diameter tube, such as 1/4", will add a little bulk, but will be reasonably easy to manage.

 

[Del91574]

Pay attention to the low battery cutoff. If it's not Altronix, then you're going to have charging issues due to the current limiting resistor on Elk's unit when it's installed on an Altronix board.

 

[TurboSam]

I've been intently following this thread and others dealing with auxiliary power supply options since I am about ready to pull the trigger on one and want to do it right.  I have  been reading everything I can here and on the manufacturers' websites (and the Altronix website seems to take the cake for least information), but looking at the installation instructions for an AL600ULX and the Altronix LPD, I don't understand this statement:
 

 The input side of the LPD should be connected to the power supply's battery outputs, and the LPD output side connects to the battery.

 
@RAL:  If I have an AL600ULX or an AL400ULX with a back-up battery in the same can, do you mean the outputs from the battery connect to the "input"  side of the LPD and the the "out" from the LPD then goes to the "+ BAT -" connection on the circuit board in the AL600ULX (which is described in the installation instructions as "Battery Connection (non power-limited)"?  
 
Or am I missing something?
 
Thanks!