Best way to identify and resolve PLC noise?

aaronboswell

New Member
I have been a long time X10 user and now fully converted to Insteon. I have 30+ devices and I am generally happy with the improved performance of the newer technology. However, Insteon seems to still be a victim of line noise and/or signal drain. I have put 20 amp noise filters on two power strips that drive most of our computers and networking equipment. This made a big difference.

I still have a few problem lights and/or controllers that do not seem to keep in sync with the scene they are a member of. For example, sometimes the keypad in the bedroom works as it should to control the bathroom lights. Sometimes it flashes after pressing and does not change the light. Other times I can turn off the bathroom light and the controller updates its status with no issues.

I am certain this is either bad equipment (no surprise with Insteon gear) or line noise.

I have searched this forum for a definitive guide to locating and resolving line issues, but it looks like it is still just a process of elimination and time consuming hit or miss attempts.

Does anyone know best practices for solving noise issues? (equipment, tools or procedures)
 
Hello Bozzman and welcome to CT!,
After exhaustive research regarding communication issues in my scenes I have stumbled upon information that switchlincs with a firmware version of 0.35 have issues with group commands. After inspecting my Insteon/ISY setup I found I have 4 switchlinc dimmers and 1 switchlinc relay with this firmware. Smarthome was great and swapped out these switches without any problem. After I put these new ones in everything worked great.

Are you using an ISY controller? If so you can run a scene test to help troubleshoot from the Administrative interface. You can also use the ISY controller to read what firmware your switches are running.

Good luck!
 
Hello Bozzman and welcome to CT!,
After exhaustive research regarding communication issues in my scenes I have stumbled upon information that switchlincs with a firmware version of 0.35 have issues with group commands. After inspecting my Insteon/ISY setup I found I have 4 switchlinc dimmers and 1 switchlinc relay with this firmware. Smarthome was great and swapped out these switches without any problem. After I put these new ones in everything worked great.

Are you using an ISY controller? If so you can run a scene test to help troubleshoot from the Administrative interface. You can also use the ISY controller to read what firmware your switches are running.

Good luck!


Thanks for the info! I took a look at my devices and sure enough, the ones I have problems with were the v.35 firmware. I also noticed that some of the devices I am not currently experiencing issues with but have in the past are that release as well.

For the one I have the most issues with, I did the scene test as you recommended and it failed. I replaced it with a v.38 spare I had and everything seems to be working great again.

Lesson learned on this one is that it may not be line noise causing the problem.

Major thanks!!
 
Looks like I spoke too soon. I still intermittently get scene test failures even after upgrading the switch.

When I press the button on the keypadlinc, the linked light in the bathroom comes on and the keypadlinc button lights. However, when I turn off the light at the source, the keypad button does not light properly.

Does this sound like communication issues or device problems?
 
I have been a long time X10 user and now fully converted to Insteon. I have 30+ devices and I am generally happy with the improved performance of the newer technology. However, Insteon seems to still be a victim of line noise and/or signal drain. I have put 20 amp noise filters on two power strips that drive most of our computers and networking equipment. This made a big difference.

I still have a few problem lights and/or controllers that do not seem to keep in sync with the scene they are a member of. For example, sometimes the keypad in the bedroom works as it should to control the bathroom lights. Sometimes it flashes after pressing and does not change the light. Other times I can turn off the bathroom light and the controller updates its status with no issues.

I am certain this is either bad equipment (no surprise with Insteon gear) or line noise.

I have searched this forum for a definitive guide to locating and resolving line issues, but it looks like it is still just a process of elimination and time consuming hit or miss attempts.

Does anyone know best practices for solving noise issues? (equipment, tools or procedures)

The best way to solve line noise is with x10 testing equipment.
With or without x 10 testers, you should do the following,....
in the entire property;
1. remove all plug strips - use 6 plex outlets instead.
2. remove all screw in Fl lighting. use incandescent lamps or Low voltage.
3. remove any lutron maestro or diva dimmers
4. remove any radio ra dimmers.
5. remove any apc computer back up type devices
6. filter all laptop power in the entire property
7. filter all LCD LED or Plasma screen tvs
8. filter all DVRs
9. remove any HID or commercial lighting
10. if your house is larger than 1300 sq feet make sure you have a coupler repeater at each panel on the property.
11. Remove all surge protection plug strips - use whole house surge protection at panel instead.
12. if the house has solar it can be filtered.
13. filter all laser printers - use act 120 filters
14. Battery chargers in garage must be unplugged.
15. unplug or filter all inverters electronic transformers etc.
this was copied from a site on line.
 
FWIW (and I realize the poster was copying from an online site to be helpful, not stating his specific opinion) while the previous post states a very complete list of things one CAN do to filter out line noise, going to that extent is rarely (if ever??) needed. I'm stating this primarily b/c I don't want a newbie being scared away from HA or powerline systems because they think they must do all this to have a stable system.

The best thing a homeowner having a powerline noise issue can practically do is to take a Saturday morning or similar downtime when they have a few hours and start unplugging devices one at a time to see when the situation improves. It's often traceable to one or two TVs / printers / laptops/ battery backups that can be controlled via plugin filters. For example, I have a particular LCD TV that acts like a vacuum for my Insteon lighting signals, while three other LCDs in the house (one an identical model to the offender, purchased at the same time) seem to have no effect. The same goes for backup power supplies - I have one that seems to feed on powerline signals, while others of the same model seem to have no effect. Thus, a small number of plug-in filters will often solve the problem. If you want to be proactive, buy a few of them and put them on all your flatscreen tvs and backup power supplies, and you'll reduce your chances of line noise dramatically.

I realize one can also measure line noise via drops in signal voltage, etc., but a walk-around on a Saturday morning can do wonders, and costs nothing but a little time.
 
I have been a long time X10 user and now fully converted to Insteon. I have 30+ devices and I am generally happy with the improved performance of the newer technology. However, Insteon seems to still be a victim of line noise and/or signal drain. I have put 20 amp noise filters on two power strips that drive most of our computers and networking equipment. This made a big difference.

I still have a few problem lights and/or controllers that do not seem to keep in sync with the scene they are a member of. For example, sometimes the keypad in the bedroom works as it should to control the bathroom lights. Sometimes it flashes after pressing and does not change the light. Other times I can turn off the bathroom light and the controller updates its status with no issues.

I am certain this is either bad equipment (no surprise with Insteon gear) or line noise.

I have searched this forum for a definitive guide to locating and resolving line issues, but it looks like it is still just a process of elimination and time consuming hit or miss attempts.

Does anyone know best practices for solving noise issues? (equipment, tools or procedures)

In my experience with X-10 and now INSTEON, it is well worth:

1) the time to develop a complete home wiring diagram
2)using #1 above to isolate INSTEON circuits where practical from utility circuits. In a modern home this is already the norm. In an older home, not so much ...
3) expense to purchase an Elk meter
4) the discipline to keep notes

You can then develop a strategy along the lines of [ I'm blocking on the name of the now-defunct (?) company that designed and sold a proprietary systems of X-10 filter/couplers near entrance panel to segment X-10 .... grrrr)] to isolate problems.

# 5) - 10) are: install an ISY

HTH ... Marc
 
When I started this diatribe this morning I had no idea I would carry on this long. Hopefully this won't be taken as the ramblings of an old man who's team just got their heads handed to them by Ohio State (shouldn't be any doubts here)....

X10, Insteon, and UPB all use your home wiring as a transmission line. As transmission lines go, home wiring systems (and the wide variety of connected loads) simply suck. I'm an EE weeny (over the past 30+ years I've come to accept the term from my ME "friends"), so I'm using the term "suck" in a very technical sense.

A 250' length of home wiring will exhibit a series impedance to the transmission frequency that can expressed in Ohms, uF, and uH per foot. Each junction box/termination on the circuit increases the impedance above the simple romex line values. If a circuit is unloaded, the effect of the wiring impedance is minimal. Turn on a load at the end of the circuit and you will form a voltage divider that attenuates the transmission amplitude. This is the "suck" that I referred to above - every time a load is activated, the signal levels on that circuit are affected.

My experience base has been X10 (30 years) and Insteon (since inception). Nonetheless, other powerline technologies must conform to the same physical properties of the home wiring system.

Published numbers for 12-2 nmb cable are (using the 130 Khz Insteon transmission frequency):

1) resistance - 0.0136 Ohms/foot, 250' resistance (2*250*0.0136) = 6.8 Ohms
2) inductance - 0.214 uH/foot, 250' equivalent impedance (2*250'*0.214e-6*2*PI*130e3 Hz) = 87.4 Ohms
3) capacitance - 10.4 pF/foot, normally not a concern due to low impedance terminations

Effect of turning on a 60 watt bulb at the end of the transmission line (voltage divider) = R bulb/(R bulb + Line resistance + Inductive impedance) = 240 /(240 + 6.8 + 87.4) = .718 (transmission signal is reduced to 72% or original amplitude). Using Insteon as an example (3.2 Vp-p) we would be down to 2.3 Vp-p at the end of the line (perfectly acceptable).

Effect of a 0.1 uF EMC capacitor at the end of the transmission line (equivalent impedance = 1/(0.1e-6uF*2*pi*130e3Hz = 12.2 Ohms)=
12.2/(12.2 + 6.8 + 87.4) = .114 (transmission signal is reduce to 11.4 % of original amplitude). Again using Insteon, we are down to .365 Vp-p (generally acceptable numbers are above 0.1 Vp-p).

Takeaways from the above -
1) Note that I am multiplying the 12-2 cable #'s by two. That's because the transmission signal must make it down the hot lead and back through the neutral. Hence the 2X numbers for resistance and inductance.
2) Most homeowners do not fully understand the tortuous route that their wiring must take. A simple 30' "as the crow flies" run can easily be a 100' foot cable run depending on obstructions and how it must enter the room. Multiply by two for forward and return paths.
3) The transmission voltage level that a particular device see's will depend on it's location on the line. Longer distance from the source = increased attenuation.
4) The above does not account for junction box connection impedance's. These can add significantly. I have my own "budgetary" numbers for powerline impedance. They are far more pessimistic than presented above.

So why do we have problems with communication when the above numbers appear good at 250'?

1) Most modern home circuits include a combination of signal absorbers and noise generators. These combine to lower the signal level (voltage division shown above) while noise will activate the Automatic Gain Control (AGC) circuit in the receiver to prevent false communication. When the AGC is activated the unit will require higher signal levels to recognize valid communication (the receiver goes deaf). Corollary - all house power distribution has noise. Impulse noise occurs at dimmer outputs. Motor brush noise is common on sweeper and other appliances. Switching power supplies and CFL's also generate noise at various frequencies. The challenge for the AGC circuit is to adjust it's input sensitivity to reject noise that could cause a communication problem while ignoring other noise. Some devices do this well, others - no so much. My favorite is the Leviton "intellisense" gated AGC. At one time I belive they had a patent on this approach. Not sure whether it is still in force.

2) The above ignores modern GFCI (wet areas - Bathroom, kitchen, basement, etc) and AFCI (bedrooms) protection devices. These devices use differential transformers to detect ground faults an voltage arcs. The same transformers absorb the communication frequencies (increased line impedance). The amount of signal absorption appears to vary by manufacturer/construction. Beware of any device plugged into one of these circuits. They will attenuate communications and, if combined with a noise source/absorber, will totally kill communications.

3) This is important for 2-way communications - whether or not a device (noise source/signal absorber) causes a problem depends on where it is installed in your home and which direction you are trying to communicate.
3A) A noise source close to a receiver may cause the receiver to miss incoming communications due to signal attenuation on the circuit (AGC activated). The same unit (talking insteon here) should be able to communicate through the noise source to other receivers (noise source is distant and does not activate their AGC).
3B) A signal absorber near a receiver may cause the receiver to miss incoming communications due to low signal level (long line length/GFCI/AFCI). The same unit will be able to drive the load presented by the absorber and communicate with other units.

The best thing a homeowner having a powerline noise issue can practically do is to take a Saturday morning or similar downtime when they have a few hours and start unplugging devices one at a time to see when the situation improves. It's often traceable to one or two TVs / printers / laptops/ battery backups that can be controlled via plugin filters. For example, I have a particular LCD TV that acts like a vacuum for my Insteon lighting signals, while three other LCDs in the house (one an identical model to the offender, purchased at the same time) seem to have no effect. The same goes for backup power supplies - I have one that seems to feed on powerline signals, while others of the same model seem to have no effect. Thus, a small number of plug-in filters will often solve the problem. If you want to be proactive, buy a few of them and put them on all your flatscreen tvs and backup power supplies, and you'll reduce your chances of line noise dramatically.

I realize one can also measure line noise via drops in signal voltage, etc., but a walk-around on a Saturday morning can do wonders, and costs nothing but a little time.

I agree completely with the walk-around approach. Unfortunately, problem devices are also portable and have a habit of moving to different circuits. When plugged into a different circuit they can bring it to it's knees.

I respectfully disagree in regard to your troublesome LCD TV. As an alternative, I'd submit that it is installed on a "problem" circuit. If your were to swap your "identical" LCD TV's, I would expect that the problem would remain on that circuit.

In my experience with X-10 and now INSTEON, it is well worth:

1) the time to develop a complete home wiring diagram
2)using #1 above to isolate INSTEON circuits where practical from utility circuits. In a modern home this is already the norm. In an older home, not so much ...
3) expense to purchase an Elk meter
4) the discipline to keep notes

You can then develop a strategy along the lines of [ I'm blocking on the name of the now-defunct (?) company that designed and sold a proprietary systems of X-10 filter/couplers near entrance panel to segment X-10 .... grrrr)] to isolate problems.

# 5) - 10) are: install an ISY

HTH ... Marc

Marc - I agree with all of the above, but would like to add/re-order some things.... The following is specific to Insteon.

1) Boosterlinc
2) Boosterlinc
3) Boosterlinc (and boosterlinc enabled X10 devices) - These devices will actively interfere with Insteon communication. Contrary to SH doctrine, I have never encountered a Insteon friendly Boosterlinc device. They are virtually impossible to troubleshoot because they actively "talk over" Insteon communications. If you have one of these in an Insteon system, donate it to a landfill. Jeff Volps XTB-R plug in repeater has been specifically designed to co-exist with Insteon and will boost X10 levels to the 32 Vp-p range.
4) Circuit mapping per Marc's note - there really is no substitute for this. Know where your problem circuits (AFCI/GFCI) and problem devices are. Beware or plug-in problem devices (play-stations, cell phones, etc) - they move.
4,5,6) ISY - can't imagine using insteon without it. I used my Insteon devices in X10 mode for two years waiting for a credible controller to come out. When the ISY was born I jumped and haven't looked back.
7) The Elk meter was a boon for X10 - it's been discontinued. In general, signal meters have limited value with Insteon systems. The repeating nature of Insteon makes it impossible to determine what device is talking when... If you wish to monitor in-band noise, Jeff Volp has developed a noise/X10 signal meter that has received wide acclaim. The Insteon transmission frequency is close enough to X10 to make the noise function useful. While the device May register Insteon signal levels, it cannot validate Insteon communication.


Other -

Insteon has managed to overcome many of the disadvantages of X10 through it's repeating (hopping) protocol and CRC/command/response confirmation. The addressable unit feature and protocol is what drew me to the technology to begin with. While I believe it is the most flexible protocol (my opinion), it is also the most complex and difficult to troubleshoot. To that end -

1) Device programming/response errors/firmware - prior to assuming that you have a transmission issue, verify that your target device/PLM have the correct programming (link table entries). Without them, the best transmission line will do not good. As noted previously, V.35 firmware devices have know problems.

2) Modem location (this applies to Insteon/X10/UPB) -The best location for your modem/PIC/whatever is next to your primary load panel. Your modem is the brain for your system and the load panel is "grand central station" for all the wiring in your home. The load panel should also be a low noise location.

3) Accesspoints/Signalincs - SH pioneered the RF phase linking using these devices. In short - I'm not a fan. I use a single passive phase coupler at my main load panel in a 4500 sq ft home. Why? Active devices can be upset by noise, power surges, etc. The passive coupler always works. The APs/SLs also add a level of complexity to the system that I do not need. I can't tell what route signals are taking with these installed. With the passive coupler in place, I know exactly what route signals are taking. I can trace them and isolate problems.

Hope this helps,
IM
 
Indy in my opinion your post very accurately reflects the limitations of X-10 and Insteon because of their very low signal level. SH would have been smart to increase the signal level when Insteon was being developed. While the repeater concept is one approach a simpler approach would have been a stronger signal to start with and reduce the cost of the system (you would not need all of the repeaters etc). Insteon could have been almost as cheap as X-10 and much better if it was designed and implemented better out of the gate.

It seems Insteon is going the opposite direction from you and adding RF repeaters to almost everything (which as you say complicates the hell out of everything). I would not be surprised if someday they eliminate the Power Line Carrier from their devices and just use RF. I would guess they feel they dont have a choice because the PLC repeaters in every device just did not overcome the obstacles you pointed out (can it be done as you have yes but it is then not plug and play by the average consumer like they first marketed it). I dont think people want to drag a filter with them if they move a noise producing or signal sucking device from one room to another (a vacuum, cell phone charger etc). Insteon seems to have made some notable improvements but there seems to be a lot of band aids and duct tape applied to a bad design. Overall Insteon has the potential to be more feature rich, however, I think the ISY is responsible for a lot of it and now there will be one for UPB and hopefully someday Zwave etc.

UPB uses a 40 Vpp signal which is 8 to 10 times stronger then Insteon and X-10 and just a phase coupler with no RF component. It is much more robust then X-10 and Insteon, however, nothing is perfect. While I have no problems getting a signal from A to B in my home nor any home I have used it in it can happen. In my house I was lucky and any place I have a PIM (I have 3 for alarm, computer, homeseer) it just works fine with no signal issues. I have plenty of UPS's, Computers, 4 large LCD TV's and a whole host of other potential noise makers. I have no filters at all and according to upstart ZERO noise in the UPB frequency area. None of my PIM modules are anywhere near the breaker box and if I moved them there my system would technically be much better (just dont need to). Lucky for me everything has just worked for years with nothing more than slapping it in so to speak (meaning ZERO troubleshooting or moving devices or hunting for signal suckers etc). To be honest some people would consider my system "boring" and I actually dont even think about it as things just work. Family and friends dont even think twice about it anymore when they are here because it is no longer a push and pray system that Insteon was (push the button and pray it works).

My opinion SH would have been better off increasing the signal strength of the PLC rather than add RF to every device. Even a 10 to 15 Vpp would have probably been more than enough for them. Probably would have been cheaper to. But adding RF is better than doing nothing so I commend them for actually trying to fix the problem rather than just cover it up as in the past.
 
>The APs/SLs also add a level of complexity to the system that I do not need. I can't tell what route signals are taking with these installed.

Arguably, the strength is that signals are not taking a single route. Because of the RF repeaters, the repeated signal effectively originates from multiple points at once and even if the signal from one of those is below a threshold to be detected, it sums with the same signal from other sources. If one route happens to be particularly bad, it becomes less relevant.
 
>The APs/SLs also add a level of complexity to the system that I do not need. I can't tell what route signals are taking with these installed.

Arguably, the strength is that signals are not taking a single route. Because of the RF repeaters, the repeated signal effectively originates from multiple points at once and even if the signal from one of those is below a threshold to be detected, it sums with the same signal from other sources. If one route happens to be particularly bad, it becomes less relevant.

I understand your point but it seems that SH is putting RF into most devices now (maybe all someday). The cost of the system is being driven up by all of this hardware that technically is not necessary if another approach was taken. Not saying that the Access Points dont have a purpose (great for having an RF remote which UPB does not have) but you should not need 8 or 10 RF repeaters in your system (Accesspoints, Lamplincs, Switches etc all becoming RF). If the PLC Signal was 10 or 15 Vpp and you had the PLC repeaters that should be more than enough. The 3 to 5 Vpp Insteon signal is just not enough if you have noise or signal degradation as Indymike explained so well.

But as I said adding the RF to everything is an improvement for most situations in my opinion you just have to be willing to pay for it and all of the filters. Had the hardware been more reliable maybe I would have paid for it to.

I think that SH is doing it because they are trying to be more plug and play for the DIY and honestly you have to give them some credit. With the Accesspoints there is no need to go into the breaker box where the average person does not belong. Most people can replace a switch but the breaker box is to dangerous for many people. With UPB you have a few options besides the wired in coupler at the breaker box but the options wont work in all cases. SH makes it a 5 minute setup to couple the AC legs together and that is a great idea (and doubles as RF receiver for the remotes and motions). The downside is now that as a band aid for the communications problems they tell you to add more RF devices at a cost to you instead of fixing the signal strength at almost no cost.

Adding the RF helps with signal suckers but it probably makes the noise problems worse or at least harder to track down.
 
Great stuff here.

I have to ask, why did Insteon not go with a stronger signal strength? There has to be a reason as it is far and away the most obvious solution. Ask any meat head at the gym and that is what he would have said ;)

Something must get screwed up if you increase the signal strength.
 
Great stuff here.

I have to ask, why did Insteon not go with a stronger signal strength? There has to be a reason as it is far and away the most obvious solution. Ask any meat head at the gym and that is what he would have said ;)

Something must get screwed up if you increase the signal strength.

One person's signal is another person's noise.

Our house has both hard-wired and INSTEON lighting. A year or so after I began installing INSTEON, the lights in my hard-wired dimmers began to occasionally flicker in consort with INSTEON activity on the powerline. I replaced some capacitors in the hard-wired circuitry and it went away. I never determined whether it was in the 0-10vdc control signal, zero-crossing detector, ramp, or comparator circuits. In any case, something was disrupting the phase-control signal to the solid-state relay (SSR) dimmers.

With Jeff's XTB, the hard-wired lights may have strobed, not just flickered ( I dunno. I still have somewhere one of the first kits he shipped but it is not installed since it is not intended, and does not benefit INSTEON. Maybe someday?)

In short, 1% instantaneous change in voltage (approximately standard X-10 and INSTEON) can be reasonably considered "signal" .

But at what voltage does it become "noise"?

I suspect that one of SH's considerations might have been concern that a change in regulation expectation of powerline quality would put the higher voltage at disadvantage/out of business. Does UPB meet code in EU where some power line and RF standards standards have historically been stricter that US?

... Marc
 
Great stuff here.

I have to ask, why did Insteon not go with a stronger signal strength? There has to be a reason as it is far and away the most obvious solution. Ask any meat head at the gym and that is what he would have said ;)

Something must get screwed up if you increase the signal strength.

One person's signal is another person's noise.

Our house has both hard-wired and INSTEON lighting. A year or so after I began installing INSTEON, the lights in my hard-wired dimmers began to occasionally flicker in consort with INSTEON activity on the powerline. I swapped out a some capacitors and it went away. I never determined whether it was in the 0-10vdc control signal, zero-crossing detector, ramp, or comparator circuits.

With Jeff's XTB, the hard-wired lights may have strobed, not just flickered ( I dunno. I still have somewhere one of the first kits he shipped but it is not installed since it is not intended, and does not work with INSTEON. Maybe someday?)

In short, 1% instantaneous change in voltage (approximately standard X-10 and INSTEON) can be reasonably considered "signal" .

But at what voltage does it become "noise"?

I suspect that one of SH's considerations might have been concern that a change in regulation expectation of powerline quality would put the higher voltage at disadvantage/out of business. Does UPB meet code in EU where some power line and RF standards standards have historically been stricter that US?

... Marc


I dont understand what you mean that the higher voltage would put SH disavantage/out of business. If the powerline quality goes down (i.e. noise, increased impedance etc) a stronger signal is what is the advantage not a disadvantage. Technically Insteons constant repeating of signals is creating more noise on a powerline or RF. Maybe what you are saying that since Insteon repeats they can not have a stronger signal as it will be unwanted noise on the powerline that may bother other electronics. Technically if the signal was strong enough they would not need to repeat anyway. Maybe they will migrate away from PLC signals and go strictly RF and they are in a transition stage?



There has been a EU version of UPB for a few years now. I believe it is also 40 Vpp signal but obviously different because of the 220 V, 50 hz. There is no RF concern because UPB is not RF.
 
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