Best way to monitor an output via a zone?

bucko

Active Member
I have two outputs on my M1RB used to open or close my water valve. One is always on depending if I have this valve open or closed. I can also just have the output momentary close to do the same thing, it doesn't matter as far as the valve is concerned.

But I want to assign 2 zones to report what state this valve is actually in. One zone for valve open, the other for valve closed.

What are the best options to have a zone(s) report this to me based on which output is active?
 
You wouldn't be able to drive a zone directly without either wiring a dry contact through another relay on the RB and tie that to the zone and fire a rule when the other output turns on to change state of that relay.

You also didn't mention if your valve has the ability to specifically provide feedback for valve position.
 
You can accomplish this fairly easily on a single output... wire it so that when the output is on, power is applied to the open circuit and the valve opens. When the output is off, power is applied to the close side. Then you can monitor the output to know the status.

The good/bad is that, if there's a system issue or during system reboots, your water will get cycled on/off - and if the panel completely shuts off, the water will likely turn off - either then, or during power up (depending on how the valve is powered). This may not be a bad thing though - it'll exercise the valve once in a while and provide a fail safe.
 
A drawing/schematic would go a long way here. Exactly how/what specs are required to control the valve. Why do you have two outputs to control the valve? Do you need a momentary pulse for separate on/off? What does this valve do? A critical task function? Would it be better maybe to monitor flow or presence of water?
 
We really need to know the make/model of the valve. Clearly this isn't Elk's valve (WSV) since it only requires a single relay to control.
 
[sharedmedia=gallery:images:487]

This is the chinese valve I power with 12vdc via a seperate wall wart. If power is lost, this valve simply stays in whatever state it is currently in.

I'm using two separate outputs on the M1RB. WHT/GRN to output NEG/ N/O then WHT/BLU to output NEG/ N/O.
A photo of the valve is on my blog and/or gallery if you want to see it.
 
That looks like it is designed to have a single relay running it. Connect the relay's common terminal to the white wire. Then, connect the other two wire to the normally closed terminal and the normally open terminal. You can do it either way depending on whether you want water on when the relay is on or when it is off. I suggest connecting green wire to the normally open terminal so that the water is on when the relay is on.

If you use a double throw relay to power it, you can hook a zone wire up to the other set of terminals so when the relay is powered the zone is secure or not secure depending on the wiring. But frankly, I don't know why you would want an alarm zone to monitor the status when it would be just the same to simply write rules in your Elk that reference the status of the output.
 
You would want a true status as it would be possible, I'm sure, for the panel to provide a false indication via software that the valve is open....real world example: Three Mile Island.

Some of the access control software and hardware we work with has provided false indications that an output was on, or an event was active as it was in the software, however the hardware never changed state.

While I don't truly think the Elk would fail to that extent, but I, myself, would want a valid positioning feedback sent to the panel or similar.
 
That valve does not appear to have any way to physically verify the position. The elk wsv has a turret on top that an alarm contact can be mounted to to verify position. I don't see that option with this valve but maybe if I actually had it oin hand I would find a way.
 
Agree with Lou. If you want that the relay itself changed position confirmation, go get a DPDT and use the second pole to monitor that position. But this will not tell you the 'actual' water valve status.

For true positioning as in a Process Control industrial sense, if that is desired, the hardware itself will have position indicators of the valve position. A lot of time this is needed especially when triggering pneumatic valves via a solenoid from a process control I/O module. In this case it is imperative to monitor the actual pneumatic valves position which is done via internal contacts that change depending on a full open or close. Usually the HMI is then designed with a logic block so it can display the command sent as well as if the valve is open, closed, or "traveling". If it did get stuck an alarm color would then be displayed on the valve (usually blinking yellow).

Additional monitoring is required on some items because it will also 'allow' an open or closed command only based on the original position of the item. This is true in contactors (large power switching) that have a latch and unlatch coils. They will also have a position monitor that is usually another pole, though not the size of the others as it is only for monitoring purposes only.

For other critical 'throw' functions that don't have onboard monitoring on the device, alternate methods are selected, such as current monitoring for a pump. Again, the HMi will display a current value usually right next to the command (on off) button.

This is why I suggested a flow monitor might be considered for your water valve situation if this was truly a critical function.

Many ways to skin this cat, all depending on hardware selection as well as how important (and cost justified) the need is.
 
Yes Lou Apo, I could use 1 relay. But using two relays now, I have better way to verify valve position, until I figure out how to get a zone involved. I can. monitor the state of two relays in my iPhone to get a reliable indicatio.

Still, I want a zone involved..

The valve does have a physical indicator showing valve position, and also a manual overide knob. So I will open it up and see about adding a contact switch of some sort.
 
Yes Lou Apo, I could use 1 relay. But using two relays now, I have better way to verify valve position, until I figure out how to get a zone involved. I can. monitor the state of two relays in my iPhone to get a reliable indicatio.

Still, I want a zone involved..

The valve does have a physical indicator showing valve position, and also a manual overide knob. So I will open it up and see about adding a contact switch of some sort.
 
Don't use two relays. If it has a handle that physically moves then affix magnetic contractors to it for verification of position. One relay can never cause the error of both circuits closing at the same time. Furthermore you still monitor the status of one relay and know which position it should be in better than with two relays.
 
Don't use two relays. If it has a handle that physically moves then affix magnetic contractors to it for verification of position. One relay can never cause the error of both circuits closing at the same time. Furthermore you still monitor the status of one relay and know which position it should be in better than with two relays.

Agree!
 
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