Can someone double check new Elk install?

[JerseyMarv]

Hello Cocooners. I've been lurking your fine site for years and am finally getting around to planning my Elk install. Hopefully. Just need someone to double check it as I seem to be getting alphabet soup induced migraines trying to sort through all the parts.
 
First off, I am currently running a robust Insteon network through an ISY994i. Probably 50 or so devices of various sorts running through 100+ programs that automates a good portion of my house. I am looking forward to integrated the Elk with the ISY and will continue to use the ISY for the automation side. 
 
Second, everything infrastructure related in my house I put there myself. All heating, electrical, and plumbing was entirely done by yours truly, so I know where EVERYTHING in this house is. Also a point of shame, while I was running my thousands of feet of wiring, I never thought to run any alarm wire... *cue shameful head shake*. There is, however, close to a thousand feet of Cat5e and Coax in the walls. At least two drops in every room, some more. So I had SOME forethought going, just not enough.
 
The situation is that I spend a lot of time away from home, usually up to an hour away, and usually overnight. I also have a terrible memory for doing things so automating stuff has been a lifesaver for me. My wife is concerned with such a big house, and no way of knowing what's going on downstairs. I've already had the ISY going for ~1 year, and have integrated that into our lives. Now its time for security.
 
My preliminary plan is as follows (with damn near all of it coming from JMAC. I like single source):
M1GSYS4STW Two Way Wireless Ready M1 Gold Kit
M1XEP M1
ELK-M1XIN M1 16 Zone Input Expander
ELK-M1KP LCD Keypad x 2
Additional 28" can
 
I say preliminary, because I'm not terribly certain I have a firm grasp on the parts and pieces together. That's where hopefully you guys come in. All my wiring runs to a centrally located wiring closet, which is where the ISY is and the Elk will go.
 
I want to install the Elk, in the 28" can, in the wiring closet. From there, I can snake alarm wire around the house through a variety of crafty means (I also don't have any trim yet so I can hide wire there easily). I will be wiring all the entry points on my ground floor for now, so I can prove the concept to the Wife.
 
I will install the Zone expander, in the 14" can that came with the Elk kit, in the garage, utilizing a cat5e drop to run it back to the panel (can I do that?). In the garage will be a KP2, along with 3 separate zones (man door, windows, garage doors). Also, looking to the future, any exterior zones I add will run to this expansion since it will be located on an outside wall, and I care little for visible wiring in my garage. 
 
The second KP2 will go in my master bedroom, via a cat5e drop there.
 
The KP that comes with the Elk kit will go at my front door via another cat5e drop. I am also considering wiring the front door contacts through this keypad.
 
I've also read about the (ELK-M1DBH M1 Data Bus Hub)  though I'm not sure what the strengths are there.
 
I chose the Elk wireless solution because it allowed me to use the key fobs. I had originally considered Honeywell for my wireless solutions because they just have more sensors, but I may add that in later on as I need to. Unless Honeywell has key fobs (just haven't looked yet).
 
So how am I looking so far? Every time I think I have this figured out, a new thing crops up and I'm back to the drawing board.
 
Of course, there is also the possibility that I showed just how little I've got it together there, but I'm open to learning. Fire away.
 
 

 

[drvnbysound]

You mentioned putting the 14" can in the garage with the M1XIN as well as the KP2. Understand that both of these are databus devices and will be connected accordingly.
 
For me, the databus hub is really beneficial when you have various homerun devices that need go to on the databus. You're able to run all of your databus devices back to the panel, terminating the Cat5E with RJ-45 connectors and plug them into the DBH... rather than having to wire/splice the Cat5E conductors to form the proper databus wiring. It's certainly not required, completely optional, but it's a heck of a lot easier for me to troubleshoot a system with a DBH installed where I can easily plug in any number of devices at a time to isolate an issue. Harder to do that when the wiring has already been spliced together and connectors crimped on and such.
 
Check the M1G installation manual, page 12, for more details on the databus wiring and use of the DBH. They lay out the differences there.
 
Honeywell does offer keyfobs. However, their fobs don't have the 2-way capability to provide you with feedback from the system (e.g. system status; armed, disarmed). Here's a link to the Honeywell ones: https://www.security.honeywell.com/hsc/products/intruder-detection-systems/wireless/remote-control/ademco/300524.html
 
Here's another link that shows all of the Honeywell 5800 series wireless products: https://www.security.honeywell.com/hsc/products/intruder-detection-systems/wireless/index.html

 

[mikefamig]

It looks to me that you did an excellent job planning the system. One thing to be aware of - The M1XIN will need to be powered and it is common to add an AUX power supply with battery back-up. You can power the XIN from the M1 panel via the cat5 cable as long as the load on the XIN is small but it is common to add an AUX power supply with battery backup near to the XIN.
 
You can download a "current draw worksheet" spreadsheet from Elk here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/Owner_support_tools.html
 
It is very helpful in determining power demand and supply.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

As a first time DIY installer myself I liked the DBH because It allowed me to easily take components in and out of the data bus for testing.
 
Mike.

 

[JerseyMarv]

You mentioned putting the 14" can in the garage with the M1XIN as well as the KP2. Understand that both of these are databus devices and will be connected accordingly.
 
For me, the databus hub is really beneficial when you have various homerun devices that need go to on the databus. You're able to run all of your databus devices back to the panel, terminating the Cat5E with RJ-45 connectors and plug them into the DBH... rather than having to wire/splice the Cat5E conductors to form the proper databus wiring. It's certainly not required, completely optional, but it's a heck of a lot easier for me to troubleshoot a system with a DBH installed where I can easily plug in any number of devices at a time to isolate an issue. Harder to do that when the wiring has already been spliced together and connectors crimped on and such.
 
Check the M1G installation manual, page 12, for more details on the databus wiring and use of the DBH. They lay out the differences there.

Ok so to make sure I'm grabbing this. The KP2 and the XIN both need cat5e home runs back to the panel? There's no way to run them together via a single drop? Getting more cat5e from the wiring closet to the garage is near impossible because of a robust firewall I had put in. What's there is all I've got. At the moment, there are 3 drops, with one currently in use. The second I wanted to devote to the Elk and the third will be to extend my wireless network out to my backyard pool area when that comes to pass. I'd really prefer not to tie up both if at all possible.

 

[JerseyMarv]

It looks to me that you did an excellent job planning the system. One thing to be aware of - The M1XIN will need to be powered and it is common to add an AUX power supply with battery back-up. You can power the XIN from the M1 panel via the cat5 cable as long as the load on the XIN is small but it is common to add an AUX power supply with battery backup near to the XIN.
 
You can download a "current draw worksheet" spreadsheet from Elk here:
http://www.elkproducts.com/Owner_support_tools.html
 
It is very helpful in determining power demand and supply.
 
Mike.

Ok that's not a problem. I'll probably just go that route as a means to take some load off the Elk.

Here's another question. Is there any way for me to repurpose unused cat5e drops as sensor wiring? A few rooms will be a bear for me but if I can tap into the wiring strand that would make things far easier.

 

[mikefamig]

I deleted my recent post because it was completely incorrect (brain fart). I was mixing up the XIN with the DBH. You can run one cat5 from the M1 to a DBH in the garage and then connect the XIN and the KP to it.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

Ok that's not a problem. I'll probably just go that route as a means to take some load off the Elk.

Here's another question. Is there any way for me to repurpose unused cat5e drops as sensor wiring? A few rooms will be a bear for me but if I can tap into the wiring strand that would make things far easier.

 
I see no reason not to use a twisted pair for zone wiring.

 

[drvnbysound]

Ok so to make sure I'm grabbing this. The KP2 and the XIN both need cat5e home runs back to the panel? There's no way to run them together via a single drop? Getting more cat5e from the wiring closet to the garage is near impossible because of a robust firewall I had put in. What's there is all I've got. At the moment, there are 3 drops, with one currently in use. The second I wanted to devote to the Elk and the third will be to extend my wireless network out to my backyard pool area when that comes to pass. I'd really prefer not to tie up both if at all possible.

 
Not necessarily. I'd say you have a couple of options... 1) use the existing Cat5 wire to connect to the XIN and KP2 directly via the splicing method I mentioned above or 2) use the Cat5 to install a garage mounted DBH... then connect both the XIN and KP2 to the DBH via Cat5 wiring.
 
In both cases, you only need (1) homerun Cat5 cable.
 
Having said that, the XIN is a very low power draw device and I wouldn't necessarily worry a whole lot about it's power draw there in the garage... but certainly use the power worksheet to calculate.

 

[mikefamig]

Do you have the M1 installation manual? The rs-485 data bus wiring is diagrammed on page seven.
 
Basically you can have up to two cat5 data busses leave from the M1 and connect devices on each of these in a parallel circuit while  observing proper termination.
 
Mike.

 

[drvnbysound]

Do you have the M1 installation manual? The rs-485 data bus wiring is diagrammed on page seven.
 
Basically you can have up to two cat5 data busses leave from the M1 and connect devices on each of these in a parallel circuit while  observing proper termination.
 
Mike.

 
Mike, Page 7 only shows it at a very high level. Page 12, with the EOL termination info details the databus wiring in detail (down to conductor wiring color / function level) with all the various options. Page 13 continues with the DBHR...

 

[mikefamig]

Mike, Page 7 only shows it at a very high level. Page 12, with the EOL termination info details the databus wiring in detail (down to conductor wiring color / function level) with all the various options. Page 13 continues with the DBHR...

Thanks for the back-up, it's been a while since I've looked at the manual. there was a time not long ago that I was studying the thing.
 
Jersey Marv - I recommend that in addition to the diagram that drvnbysound referred to you download the DBH installation instructions and read and understand the wiring there. I think that once you understand these you will see the big picture on the data bus.
 
Mike.

 

[mikefamig]

So at least three of us didn't overdo it last night! Happy New Year guys.

 

[mikefamig]

When I wired my garage I installed a DBH, XIN and OVR powered via a 18awg pair from and AUX power in the house. The XIN is for the obvious doors, windows motions etc. The OVR is used to open and close the overhead doors.
 
In hindsight, the DBH was overkill as I still only have the two devices connected to it and I could have just as easily hardwired everything without the DBH,

 

[mikefamig]

Honeywell does offer keyfobs. However, their fobs don't have the 2-way capability to provide you with feedback from the system (e.g. system status; armed, disarmed).

 
I do have the ELK two way wireless keyfobs but it is very hard to see the little light on the keyfob that confirms communication with the M! so I wrote a rule that chirps the out2 outside siren whenever the house arms. One chirp for arm and two chirps for disarm.
 
Mike.