CEDIA Electronic Lifestyles EXPO

I'll do a search on the threads you speak of because I am super suprised that anyone who's used both means (dedicated server vs. changer/manager) would ever prefer a changer "solution". They don't even compare in my book.

I think the consnsus was that hard drives are perfect for audio because audio files are small, people listen to the same music many times over, and ripping music is very fast. Video however requires tons of expensive drive space and hardware, is ridiculously time consuming to set up, and and has minimal value since most people will only want to see a particular movie once or twice and then it just takes up drive space after that. A changer is cheaper to buy, faster to set up, and more economical for storing movies than filling up terebytes of disk space.

Hard disk space is getting very cheap. I personally store movies I want to watch on my media server, then delete them when I'm through watching. I probably have at least 30 movies stored on there at any given time, but I could store a couple hundred if I needed to.

I tend to use my media server to 'time shift' rented movies.

For the few times I want to watch a movie that I own again, I'll take the disc off the shelf. I own hundreds, but I have no desire to have them ALL instantly accessible.

Takes me 5-10 mins to rip a movie to my media server.
 
Similar situation here. We currently have much of our collection ripped (approx. 225) but need to have more storage to place the rest in the server. For my family, the best part of the server is my 5 year old can get up in the a.m. and play any movie she wants (filters in place to ensure she only watches Nemo and his ilk). For my clients, the attraction to servers tends towards the "cool" factor. Add to that the ability to press play and actually have the movie start in under 30-45 seconds and you have a fun system that typically smokes a changer solution (legality set aside for the moment as the K'scape win makes a big dent in Hollywood's paranoia).
 
Takes me 5-10 mins to rip a movie to my media server.

That is quicker than I thought... I was under the impression that it took like 30 minutes per DVD. Maybe I'm thinking of dupe time if you burn them onto a DVD-R.

So what media do you use to back up your hard disk full of movies?
 
So what media do you use to back up your hard disk full of movies?

I don't. Since the movies are merely copies of what I already own on disc, or time-shifted rentals, they are of little importance to me. They are on a RAID5 array with a hotspare, so the chance of losing the data is very slim, but there's always a chance - and it's a chance I'm willing to take.

My photos, videos, and music are all stored on the same RAID5 array and are backed up to a 2nd server on my network. I also occasionally archive a copy to DVD.

Other, more important data, is stored on another RAID5 array, and backed up nightly to tape.
 
OK, here is my take on the convention:

WOW, much bigger than I expected. Pretty impressive. What was most astounding was the amount of vendors and the competition between them. I had no idea there were so many manufacturers offering the same things. example: if they took out all the speaker, tv mount and theater furniture manufacturers the show would have been about half the size, LOL. Good god there must have been 20 vendors offering TV mounts! Crazy. I just need ONE, as should most of us.

If we as an industry are overwhelmed by the choices, imagine the consumer. The biggest thing learned was FOCUS! Focus on your own spealized solution, keep the manufaturer offerings to a select few as possible, and LEARN them inside and out. While larger installers can have teams of people specializing in multitudes of vendors, for the most part, IMO, our industry is made up of many much smaller companies. I am convinced my success will come from LIMITING myself to fewer choices. Chances are consumers are completely clueless anyways as to what is out there and will rely on our expertise and suggestion anways. Stick to YOUR solutions and fit them into your customer base. As a newbie to home automation, what I learned most was this is a VERY competitive field and can get extremely technical. As an installer, its the resonsiblility of us to choose, install and train customers. The last thing customers need is to be confused and not able to use the chosen system. the point for me is: Chose a set standard (product, manufacture, etc) and stick to that. become expert on what you do and not try too many vendors to deal with. offerings are TRULY overwhelming but if one can chose just a few and learn those, success is at hand.

The most WOW thing was indeed the 3d tv. However, I didnt see a tv that you didnt have to wear glasses. What was that manufacturer?? The biggest issue with 3d tv is, as explained by Samsung, was that there is not much media at this time. Their HOPE is to have more movies recorded in 3d for consumers. They did say there is software that converts any existing media into 3d but admitted it was not that great. I saw star wars in 3d, I dont think it was recorded in 3d and guessing it was software implemented and if it was they are WRONG that its not that great as I was blown away by it. Both Samsung and Mitsubishi said 3d is in most of their new tvs right now. Certainly looking into that. IMPRESSED!

Now, what did I like? Never heard of Convergent Living, but it's likely they will become our standard. Why? It APPEARS to be simple and straight forward and the one of the most reasonably priced offerings out there. They "claim" no central processor (no server or stand alone pc to make it all work), however if you look closer you find that the main unit ( a touchscreen LCD) actually works like a main processing unit. I was impressed. works on Linux and its all imbedded. Meeting with a rep next week and will post more findings on using their solution then. Convergent Living will be the front end while on-q/hai (for now) will be the back end. However, I may be moving my audio to Russound instead of on-q as at this time and the near future, on-q will not have an audio solution that automation can tie into. on-q also implied it could be a year or two before their audio can be tied into that. Well that simply sucks and on-q will lose out and continue to lose out on audio installs. There are MANY that have on-q lyrix and it seams like it would be so simple for on-q to allow us to simply tap into the lyrix system.

There are many many many many optoins to chose from. My standard was going to be a Cinemar/Mainlobby frontend. But what I learned was that mainlobby is eons away from going mainstream and is pretty much DIY. Why do I say that? First let me say that mainlobby, IMO, it WAY AHEAD of the game as far as the ability to configure pretty much anything as well as the ability have whatever look and feel you want. its still VERY impressive on that side. Some of their plugins are simply plug and play and they rock. The problem is I just cant see it being in a production environment. The amount of time it takes for programming (they call it configing, but everyone else calls it programming as it should be called) and the learning curve is simply too much. Will the day come when mainlobby is system whereby all you do is chose the options via drop down menus like EVERYONE else? When that day comes, mainlobby will move from the DIY environment to a professional enviromment. That will likely take millions dumped into the company or a sell out to a competitor or investment group. Personally, I think its vital to the success of cinemar (if their goal is to move from DIY). I spoke with many manufactures and most had not heard of cinemar/mainlobby. Of course some had and those where mostly the ones that cinemar has plugins. I also spoke with many installers and ALL agreed on the DIY vs production. Most agreed also that cinemar is "cool" and they would love to see it simplified so it can be used in production environments. The main issue with everyone was that the amount of time of programming and the inevitable reboots and maintenance. I am saddened that i have spent so much time enjoying and learning mainlobby only to think i wont use it in a production environment. Maybe cinemar can share with us some future projects that will encourage us as installers to keep cinemar in the radar. Cinemar? Please? Surely they can see that the competition requires no .(~{}|!, etc. I saw ZERO that required the coding that Cinemar does. Not ONE. I am no programmer, but it surely appears that drop down boxes with all the programming already written is the ONLY way to go when trying to sell to installers. Not sure what it takes but it simply doesnt matter. Its a must. Most of the selling points from vendors was "ease of setup". Anyone disagree with this summation? Is Cinemar planning any major updates to address the pro installers ease of setup? I simply dont want to have to figure out if lift out an "{" and thats what keeps an install from working. Its crazy, just makes zero sense. Am I off base here? Please chime in. I got the impression with Cinemar not being at the show, its more of a DIY product. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The spring show is in April and now in Dallas not vegas. Looking forward to that as well as meetings others in the industry. Met three cocooners there. Spanky, thanks for your hospitality.

I am REALLY looking forward to learning more about Convergent Living. Input welcome!! Anyone using it? Pro's Con's? I will see if there is a thread already on this.

Thanks!
 
OK, here is my take on the convention:

WOW, much bigger than I expected. Pretty impressive. What was most astounding was the amount of vendors and the competition between them. I had no idea there were so many manufacturers offering the same things. example: if they took out all the speaker, tv mount and theater furniture manufacturers the show would have been about half the size, LOL. Good god there must have been 20 vendors offering TV mounts! Crazy. I just need ONE, as should most of us.

If we as an industry are overwhelmed by the choices, imagine the consumer. The biggest thing learned was FOCUS! Focus on your own spealized solution, keep the manufaturer offerings to a select few as possible, and LEARN them inside and out. While larger installers can have teams of people specializing in multitudes of vendors, for the most part, IMO, our industry is made up of many much smaller companies. I am convinced my success will come from LIMITING myself to fewer choices. Chances are consumers are completely clueless anyways as to what is out there and will rely on our expertise and suggestion anways. Stick to YOUR solutions and fit them into your customer base. As a newbie to home automation, what I learned most was this is a VERY competitive field and can get extremely technical. As an installer, its the resonsiblility of us to choose, install and train customers. The last thing customers need is to be confused and not able to use the chosen system. the point for me is: Chose a set standard (product, manufacture, etc) and stick to that. become expert on what you do and not try too many vendors to deal with. offerings are TRULY overwhelming but if one can chose just a few and learn those, success is at hand.

The most WOW thing was indeed the 3d tv. However, I didnt see a tv that you didnt have to wear glasses. What was that manufacturer?? The biggest issue with 3d tv is, as explained by Samsung, was that there is not much media at this time. Their HOPE is to have more movies recorded in 3d for consumers. They did say there is software that converts any existing media into 3d but admitted it was not that great. I saw star wars in 3d, I dont think it was recorded in 3d and guessing it was software implemented and if it was they are WRONG that its not that great as I was blown away by it. Both Samsung and Mitsubishi said 3d is in most of their new tvs right now. Certainly looking into that. IMPRESSED!

Now, what did I like? Never heard of Convergent Living, but it's likely they will become our standard. Why? It APPEARS to be simple and straight forward and the one of the most reasonably priced offerings out there. They "claim" no central processor (no server or stand alone pc to make it all work), however if you look closer you find that the main unit ( a touchscreen LCD) actually works like a main processing unit. I was impressed. works on Linux and its all imbedded. Meeting with a rep next week and will post more findings on using their solution then. Convergent Living will be the front end while on-q/hai (for now) will be the back end. However, I may be moving my audio to Russound instead of on-q as at this time and the near future, on-q will not have an audio solution that automation can tie into. on-q also implied it could be a year or two before their audio can be tied into that. Well that simply sucks and on-q will lose out and continue to lose out on audio installs. There are MANY that have on-q lyrix and it seams like it would be so simple for on-q to allow us to simply tap into the lyrix system.

There are many many many many optoins to chose from. My standard was going to be a Cinemar/Mainlobby frontend. But what I learned was that mainlobby is eons away from going mainstream and is pretty much DIY. Why do I say that? First let me say that mainlobby, IMO, it WAY AHEAD of the game as far as the ability to configure pretty much anything as well as the ability have whatever look and feel you want. its still VERY impressive on that side. Some of their plugins are simply plug and play and they rock. The problem is I just cant see it being in a production environment. The amount of time it takes for programming (they call it configing, but everyone else calls it programming as it should be called) and the learning curve is simply too much. Will the day come when mainlobby is system whereby all you do is chose the options via drop down menus like EVERYONE else? When that day comes, mainlobby will move from the DIY environment to a professional enviromment. That will likely take millions dumped into the company or a sell out to a competitor or investment group. Personally, I think its vital to the success of cinemar (if their goal is to move from DIY). I spoke with many manufactures and most had not heard of cinemar/mainlobby. Of course some had and those where mostly the ones that cinemar has plugins. I also spoke with many installers and ALL agreed on the DIY vs production. Most agreed also that cinemar is "cool" and they would love to see it simplified so it can be used in production environments. The main issue with everyone was that the amount of time of programming and the inevitable reboots and maintenance. I am saddened that i have spent so much time enjoying and learning mainlobby only to think i wont use it in a production environment. Maybe cinemar can share with us some future projects that will encourage us as installers to keep cinemar in the radar. Cinemar? Please? Surely they can see that the competition requires no .(~{}|!, etc. I saw ZERO that required the coding that Cinemar does. Not ONE. I am no programmer, but it surely appears that drop down boxes with all the programming already written is the ONLY way to go when trying to sell to installers. Not sure what it takes but it simply doesnt matter. Its a must. Most of the selling points from vendors was "ease of setup". Anyone disagree with this summation? Is Cinemar planning any major updates to address the pro installers ease of setup? I simply dont want to have to figure out if lift out an "{" and thats what keeps an install from working. Its crazy, just makes zero sense. Am I off base here? Please chime in. I got the impression with Cinemar not being at the show, its more of a DIY product. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The spring show is in April and now in Dallas not vegas. Looking forward to that as well as meetings others in the industry. Met three cocooners there. Spanky, thanks for your hospitality.

I am REALLY looking forward to learning more about Convergent Living. Input welcome!! Anyone using it? Pro's Con's? I will see if there is a thread already on this.

Thanks!
What's up, Ranger? Yeah I am a CL dealer and I love the stuff. I, like you, place it as a front end over HAI but I also connect via CL direct to some systems as well (Vantage, Ocelot, Russound, UPB, etc.) there is SOOOO much more that can be accomplished via CL. The custom side is taking off and I am offering custom GUI's to clients at this point. I have been with them for over a year now and can say that the support is TOP NOTCH. Who's your rep? Where are you located? I can tell you that I personally use both a SideKick and a C8 in my own home and my wife also loves it. I can scale it to large projects (just completed 13,500 sq.ft. home with 6 x C8's and a Muse, Vantage lighting, HAI, full theater control including Xperinet server and clients, etc.) yet it's "affordable" enough to place in 2000 sq.ft. production. Take a look at the serial router they offer. Freakin' awesome device at low $. Also, there matrix switches are incredible. Best control I've used, cheaper than AutoPatch (AMX) or Extron but with spec's to match. Can be custom built in a huge array of config's and beats the crap at of the low bandwidth or misrepresented CRAP out there (Key Digital, Calrad, etc.). I'm excited for you as I am confident that you and your clients will be more than satisfied...
 
ranger,
Yes, Cinemar has a lot in place and getting more and more refined to take less configuration effort.

BTW, did you go to the two largest booths ie: Crestron / AMX? These are the two most successful at what we do, and you HAVE to be a software developer to implement either. A fair degree more complex than MainLobby to get things done. Dealer training is mandatory. (weeks). So, you might want to consider a recalibration on what it takes to be succesfull, as many Crestron / AMX dealers have been just that.

When we last talked, I strongly suggested that you attend dealer training. The suggestion is still one you might consider. Automation is a fairly complex undertaking to take account for the myriad of different equipment, architecture, end user wants that a dealer runs up against. The software has to account for these variations (or not). The complexity this rises is signficant. A dealer's value add is to bridge these complications with a solution.

There are many automation solutions that are much simpler - an IR remote control that does macros is the begining. For some customers, and some dealers, that is good enough, and what makes them smile. MainLobby is targeted at those installations that are not happy with that limited capability. But, the trade off is that the configuration of the custom system becomes more extensive.

What our dealers typically do is to put together their showcase system. They then clone and edit that proven system for the individual needs of their customer. You are just starting to put that system together. From your comments, you haven't gotten to the point where you can replicate and leverage the time investment yet. It will come.

From a Production vs. DIY perspective, you are going to get a lot of diverse opinions on that subject. PC based automation is still fairly infant and there isn't quite the cross industry feel good about it yet. A few companies have attempted to introduce products in the past that weren't well executed and failed. The software quality and hardware pricing and availability has increased significantly from these early "ModelT" days. You may have seen the CEDIA announcement that Creston will be remarketing MediaCenter Edition of Windows. That is at least acknowledgement or even "seal of approval" that the time may be now for PC based systems to be a mainstay in a production environment.

Cinemar has participated in several EHX shows. We have not participated in CEDIA. It's a advertising cost / time lost / benefit balance. We are looking at doing Spring EHX (which we have done the last several years) and CEDIA for next year. There was just way too much new products being released and the work that entails to pack up for CEDIA for two weeks this go around. We hope to meet you at Spring EHX.

But, back to your core discussion re: simplification. I agree with you 100%. There is much work to make something complex, simple. We have been doing that process for the last couple of years, and only now is it really starting to come together. Our next generation DVDLobby will be good example of this. Something worth hanging in there for :)
 
david, SUPER comments. No, I have not given up yet on Cinemar as I DO recognize that once I can get a "model" system down, that others will come much easier. My "y in the road" is should I or should I not since there are competitors out there that dont require the extensive model.

You are correct 100% in that companies like AMX and crestron are complicated. One of many reasons I am not going there, but mostly that is NOT my market. Im not even comparing cinemar to them. You have MANY things going for you. For one, the price is not even comparable to anyone, no one that I can find. Not one. That said, once I, or others, can get more comfortable with the programming, mainlobby can be a winner. a next HUGE concern is stability. so knock out the ease of use issues and give us more sweet feelings about call backs and tweeking, then there is NO REASON why cinemar cant be THE Leader in low and mid range systems (which in my opinion is the LARGEST segment of the market place and exactly where I want to be, in the middle).

I am glad you didnt take my post as an insult. I was meant to be constructive and it appears you took it that way. Good, thanks. Its exciting to hear there is progress intended as I personally think Cinemar CAN be a leader outside of the DIY market. Cant wait to see the ease of use released. looking forward to it, eagerly.
 
upstate, I was led to believe by Convergent living that $4500 or less would get me a complete working system with 2.5 touchscreens (the half being an endusers TV). Not lots of bells and whistles but really the bells and whistles are in what you add third party to the system. I will let you know how it goes after I meet with them next week. Price compared to mainlobby, mainlobby wins EVERYTIME on price. everytime, thus my eagerness to see what new products Cinemar comes out with.
 
upstatemike, the MAP is indeed $3500-$4500. First, that's MAP. Second, clients that I work with are typically in VERY large homes, tying multiple subsystems and want multiple TP's, hence quantity discount. Third, the price is not only in hardware but in development. Lastly, when I spec in a $7500 Modero panel and the client balks, I can "sell down" to an incredibly robust solution that is inherently stable at a MUCH lower price point or sell up from a frankly lousy (by comparison) HAI or Elk TP. I don't compete against DIY style (a la HomeSeer, HAL, etc.) in my neck of the woods and the day I do, I'll hang up my hat and continue on with high and mid fi audio to feed my family.

I like ramen. I'll eat ramen. I prefer steak.
 
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