Conservation via HA...

[shenandoah75]

I thought i had mentioned this, but guess not... in conjunction with the recommendation from Digger and I on getting an on demand water heater, if you're also running water at remote locations of the ouse for a minute or more waiting for hot water (i.e. the shower, etc) - get yourself one of these:

http://www.gothotwater.com/

They sell push button only or push botton / motion driven activation. But you can buy the non-motion cheaper and tie it into your existing H/A. I don't control via motion because closet is in the bath and if it fired up everytime someone entered closet or to use the john, we'd be wasting propane in the Rinnai. Thus, I will be wiring the momentary control (currently a push button mounted into master bath's vanity) to an elk relay. And i'll have momentary push buttons mounted in the other bathroom and kitchen by the sink which also take a minute + to get hot water. Of course this would achieve the same thing regardless of the type of your water heater, you're not wasting 100's or 1000's of gallons of water a year.

-brad

 

[Steve]

http://www.gothotwater.com/

The problem I have with these (and this one looks more flexible than the Grundfos units) is that there is no foolproof way to have hot water immediately without either remembering to do something like press a button beforehand, or have some other method of automation like a contact or motion which will certainly have false positives.

I am currently remodeling master bath and have the issue where it takes 40-60 sec to get hot water but I was very strongly leaning toward a small 2-4 gallon hot water tank under the sink. That would supply enough hot water instantly until the main tank gets hot water there. With this method there will always be hot water at the faucets or shower without ever thinking about it. It doesn't waste water either, but there is the one disadvantage of the energy costs. My hope was that a very small tank would not use much and I could do things like shut it off when away, etc.

Of course, since this metlund unit has easy HA interfacing, etc. it could be set to turn on several times a day when showers are 'typically' taken, etc. but I don't think it would ever be as 'available' as a small tank.

 

[Digger]

http://www.gothotwater.com/

The problem I have with these (and this one looks more flexible than the Grundfos units) is that there is no foolproof way to have hot water immediately without either remembering to do something like press a button beforehand, or have some other method of automation like a contact or motion which will certainly have false positives.

I am currently remodeling master bath and have the issue where it takes 40-60 sec to get hot water but I was very strongly leaning toward a small 2-4 gallon hot water tank under the sink. That would supply enough hot water instantly until the main tank gets hot water there. With this method there will always be hot water at the faucets or shower without ever thinking about it. It doesn't waste water either, but there is the one disadvantage of the energy costs. My hope was that a very small tank would not use much and I could do things like shut it off when away, etc.

Of course, since this metlund unit has easy HA interfacing, etc. it could be set to turn on several times a day when showers are 'typically' taken, etc. but I don't think it would ever be as 'available' as a small tank.

I thought about these at the time and I did not feel that they are worth the expense. I know society wants everything faster and faster but I try and weigh the cost versus the benifets.

I did however more the tankless water heater closer to the areas that use hot water. I actually cut the water runs in half and one of these days when I get a chance to tie in a direct fed to the shower it will only be about a 6 or 8 foot run.

If you live in a very cold climate make sure you oversize the water heater since it is starting out with very cold water. I actually have to adjust mine in the summer because the incoming water is not as cold. I bought a lower end unit with not as much automation on the water temperature. I only adjust it twice a year so its no big deal.

They also make very small electric on demand water heaters for small bathrooms with no showers etc. and slightly larger ones for with showers. They are great for remotely located bathrooms in large houses/buildings.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I have a hot water circulating pump that came with my home (mounted near the hot water tank). It had settings for a timed off and on (a lot like an outdoor landscape power supply), but I just turn it on via an applicance module/X-10 command and automatically turn it off after a few minutes.

It only takes a minute or so to recirculate so we just have a mini controller by our bedroom nightstand that we hit before getting into the shower. Hot water under three seconds.

 

[Steve]

I don't dispute that the recirculating systems work, and maybe you think its a frivilous or lazy thing, but like you said, you have to press the button before you shower. What if you forget, etc - then you are gonna wait a minute for your water. While a small tank may cost a bit more in the long run, it is instant hot water all the time without pressing any buttons or thinking about anything. I would love to not have another tank, but I also can't see training the wife to antipate 30-60 seconds before she wants to use the sink or shower to press a button first.

 

[mustangcoupe]

I would love to not have another tank, but I also can't see training the wife to antipate 30-60 seconds before she wants to use the sink or shower to press a button first.

I guess it is push the button, have the extra expense in a second/third water heater or just deal with the colder water for a minute (and yes waste the water...) let her decide...


Do you need one of these recurculator units for every location? or can the pump handle multiple locations?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I would love to not have another tank, but I also can't see training the wife to antipate 30-60 seconds before she wants to use the sink or shower to press a button first.

I guess it is push the button, have the extra expense in a second/third water heater or just deal with the colder water for a minute (and yes waste the water...) let her decide...


Do you need one of these recurculator units for every location? or can the pump handle multiple locations?

Another thing I wanted to mention. It seems my hot water tank has another pipe coming out the side for this feature so I'm not sure if this would work with conventional tanks.

As far as the wife remembering to push the button, once she trys it the first time and has instant hot water, trust me, this will not be a problem!

 

[Michael McSharry]

I would love to not have another tank, but I also can't see training the wife to antipate 30-60 seconds before she wants to use the sink or shower to press a button first.

I guess it is push the button, have the extra expense in a second/third water heater or just deal with the colder water for a minute (and yes waste the water...) let her decide...


Do you need one of these recurculator units for every location? or can the pump handle multiple locations?

Another thing I wanted to mention. It seems my hot water tank has another pipe coming out the side for this feature so I'm not sure if this would work with conventional tanks.

As far as the wife remembering to push the button, once she trys it the first time and has instant hot water, trust me, this will not be a problem!

I installed a water recir system when I built my house. My recirc pump volume is low so it takes more than a few seconds to pump water from the tank to the shower as was BSR's case. I have a standard water heater and the drain valve is where I tapped into the tank as the water source for the pump.

The retrofit systems that pump hot water back through the cold water line are typically installed so they are at the longest hot water run from the tank. That will make hot water available everywhere in a standard plumbing configuration. They could be put at any point that has access to both hot and cold lines if only a partial solution is desired. What I have read about these systems is that they tend to be noisy as it forces the water back against the pressure of the forward cold water. They also warm the cold water so if you like cold water out of the tap then you will need to wait for the water to cool just like you would of had to wait for the water to warm without the recirculator.

Options also exist with new install recirc systems. In my case I run my water (hot and cold) to a central point at the center of the house and then manifold it with home runs to each room. I run the recirc line from the master bath shower back to the tank. This design supports instant hot water at the shower and the other locations only need to run to clear out the cooled water from the manifold forward. I use a plastic material for my plumbing which is similiar to the material used for in-floor heating systems. It has a poor thermal transfer which is good to keep hot water hot and cold water cold. Insulation around it also helps.

I also use an appliance module to control the recirc pump. It starts when bathroom motion occurs in the AM after my wife's scheduled wake up and stops after water flow from two showers has been detected or 10 AM. This provides a good balance of automatic operation and energy efficiency.

 

[forgets]

my take on conservation is to not have it on unless need be, I try and write all my critical automation rules in elk, because I have my higher end automation contol (my pc) turn itself off at 11pm daily, and back on at 9am..

my automation pc itself is a fanless mini-itx, which consumes less than 15w I believe to be on..
anything that can be solar powered is, the floodlights for the outside of my house, which I'm trying to rig with x10 so I can better control when they turn on.. little things as well, like having a solar powered rain sensor help, and hey, its free power from mother nature, I've also just invested in solar powered attic vent fans, to keep the attic temp down..

I live in sunny (and frequently above 90) miami fl, where most citizens electric bills are high due to cooling costs, most of my neighbors are paying 300-400 a month for electric bills, and more than half of that cost is due to aforementioned cooling... I've got uv film installed on my windows to help keep most of the sun's heat out, and I also am putting in a zoned damper system (rcs system) and the dampers are controlled by the motion detectors the elk uses, that way all of the cool from the a/c is directed toward only occupied rooms, resulting in much faster cooling meaning the a/c only has to run about 15mins to cool one room down 5-10 degrees instead of an hour to cool the whole house down.

I've also been looking into a tankless water heater, and am glad to hear some good reviews of them here, hopefully that will drop my energy bill down a bit further (now about $75 on average in summer months and $40 in winter months)..

I'm glad this thread is open and people are talking and interested in it, cause its up to all of us to conserve.

 

[hucker]

forgets:

Could you explain how your 12V stuff works? I am curiious about how one can go about taking 12V power from panels and integrating that with line voltage stuff.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I also use an appliance module to control the recirc pump. It starts when bathroom motion occurs in the AM after my wife's scheduled wake up and stops after water flow from two showers has been detected or 10 AM.

Hi Michael;

I'm curious as to what you are using to detect flow.

Thanks,

BSR

 

[Michael McSharry]

I also use an appliance module to control the recirc pump. It starts when bathroom motion occurs in the AM after my wife's scheduled wake up and stops after water flow from two showers has been detected or 10 AM.

Hi Michael;

I'm curious as to what you are using to detect flow.

Thanks,

BSR

I have 2 meters from WaterMeters.com in Hackensack NJ. One for filtered in-house and the other unfiltered for irrigation. They have dry contact 1 pulse per gallon outputs which I connect via 1-wire DS2423 counters and put the values on the LAN using xAP. If I recall the smaller 3/4" meter is around $100 and the 1" about twice that. They are a nice quality brass meter.

The flow detection algorithm looks for a flow rate that persists for a few minutes and then stops to detect a single shower or a total flow of some number of gallons to deal with two showers taken back to back. The period the rate must persist is selected to distinguish sink and toilet usage from the shower.

FYI, the new Rain8Net and the Rain8UPB both contain a counter input so you are able to instrument water use without the need for 1-wire or other separate interface.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Thanks for that info Michael. Interesting information about those Rain8 products also (I had no idea they could do that)!

Regards,

BSR

 

[Guy Lavoie]

I've also done the "random lights" routine when the alarm system is armed. I'm using the Ocelot to do this (as well as everything else).

I monitor my dual fuel heating system to know when I'm at the high electricity rate (via a signal from the special watthour meter) and do things like cut off the electric water heater after a certain time of the day to let it recover at the lower rate in the morning. The high/low electricity rate is triggered by the outside temperature, with high rate kicking in if temp falls below -12 deg C.

I also control the pool pump and turn it off at different times depending on the month. In June, July and August it stops at 9:00 PM. In May, Sept and Oct, it stops at 6:00 PM. I also have an override function if I want it to filter all night.

Outside lights are also turned on relative to sunset and turned off at different evening times.

 

[politics123]

I've also been looking into a tankless water heater, and am glad to hear some good reviews of them here, hopefully that will drop my energy bill down a bit further (now about $75 on average in summer months and $40 in winter months)..

You live in Florida, right? Why not get a Solar H/W system? There are large Florida rebates available in addition to a Federal rebate through the end of this year -- which should make the total cost very competitive with a tankless -- and, of course, the operating cost is much better


Also, I'm interested in your fanless mini-ATX computer... especially after my Kill-A-Watt told me how much $$$ I spend on my CPU. How did you acquire it? Do you have any links?