Considering OpenHAB any other contenders?

[mark_anderson_us]

Quickie synopsis to date and just relating to the creation of a "touch screen" and maybe cuz I have used it for a number of years; Homeseer Touch designer even with its nuances (bugs) is fastest methodology to create a touch screen in the Android and Wintel and Linux world.  I get carried away sometimes with it wanting identical screens in all three OS's; guess just relating to some uniformity.
 
I am too totally managing my touchscreens from the mothership and vice versa.  While testing wireless I am not dependent on wireless consoles in my home today; never have been.  Tablets are tablets here and used mostly as an interface to the internet rather than consoles to my automation; but that is me.
 
For whatever reason not addressing the esthetics of the screens over the function and response times.  (this is that low WAF thing about too many variables on one touch screen).  IE: touch response times not connected to the mothership server and running scripts autonomously is really fast.  Elve is doing well right now relating to response times connecting to my HAI OPII panel (well and running it on wintel).
 
I have multiple means of consoles (touchscreens) today and mostly look at how many weather maps, temperature variables et al I can fit on one screen. 
 
Meanwhile I would be very interested in what you find and what you decide to do relating to your home automation Mark.
 
I am in a bit of a bit of a "literal" cynical mood today; not relating to automation though.

Hi Pete
 
I agree with you about wireless. I would love to avoid it, but without something like POE support for iOS devices (my preferred device), I'm hosed. That being said, I made sure I have excellent coverage. Each floor is only about 600sq ft and have wireless router or access point on each.If I could find a good looking wall mounted tablet that connected to server via cable for around $200-$250 I would have used them. I think the ones HS sells look pretty awful. I have to say my iPad min's (gen 1) are so much faster than Kindle fires (original models). Probably not a fair comparison as the fire's are probably a year older. 
 
I do agree about HStouch for the most part (especially looking at Indigo's offering ) The amount of stuff you can do is remarkable. What really frustrates me is when I go to do a 10 minute job and ends up being 2 hours. Once I get into it, I just get on and do it, but the problem is it creates inertia: I looked at 7 day weather saying "Text" on my touch screens for a good 6-8 weeks: partly because I was busy with other stuff, but mostly because I knew it was gonna be a PITA to update about 50 objects in each project. Buying UltraWeather (bought it some months ago) was the best thing I did regarding weather.Now I have a bunch of devices on screen and a backend pointing to those. This is where HS really falls down: suggesting using RSS objects in the UI for weather is just crazy. You'd be far better off writing a script to retrieve the RSS data and populating variables that can then be hooked up to the UI. This way, when the weather service changes, you update the script and never touch the UI. Of course, when you've just bought HS, you don't realize this and assume the documentation is promoting best practices. Out of date and lacking documentation is really frustrating too. What's annoying about this, is that they have a phenomenal community. I, and i'm sure many others, would contribute to documentation if they made it available (e.g. in a wiki). Even keeping control of the content, but using an up to date help system that allows community feedback would be a great help. They definitely seem stuck in 20th century.
 
My drive towards an HTML client is 3 fold:

• Improve Javascript and MVC framework knowledge (learning Angular now)
• Tired of being stuck with tools provided by vendors and pedestrian update cycles - sure they get you 80% of the way there, but over time, I think it's natural to aim for 100%
• There's such a rich pool of widgets/components to choose from in the HTML world and I know I can build a single project that adapts to viewports from phone to 30" monitor.

All that said, it's gonna be a lengthy project (for inclusion of real-time updates) and I need a platform that will do the basics while i build my own UI.
 
OpenHAB is looking promising. I like the idea of independent add-ons (e.g. can install an improved z-wave module easily). Not wild about the tools, so far, but I only have about 2 hours under my belt. Designer seems to do nothing other than give you a pretty view of the files, some syntax checking and browser pane (unless I'm missing something).
 
habmin seems a little better: lets you add items, but does remove all formatting from cfg file and resulted in syntax errors
 
I think I read somewhere that v2 of OpenHAB will have much better tools for admin
 
Anyway, will post updates, as and when I have things to report.
 
Regards
 
mark

 

[hedg12]

Sounds a bit lame

Really Marc? You asked if anyone had tried Openremote. I replied that I had, although not extensively. I'm fairly familiar with its capabilities & functions, but since you asked a vague open ended question I have no idea what information you're looking for. My response was simply an opening for more dialog.
 
Rudeness seldom results in willing responses.  

 

[mark_anderson_us]

I think there's some confusion. I meant that "OpenRemote" sounds a bit lame if all it does is expose eventghost, not your reply or opinion
 
Apologies
 
Mark

 

[hedg12]

My reply was a little harsh as well. Bit of an off day - sorry.

Openremote does much more than just send UDP - that's just all I've used it for. It's UI is completely customizable and it meets all your needs and two out of three of your wants (no Nest yet). Well worth a look if you have the time.

 

[mark_anderson_us]

My reply was a little harsh as well. Bit of an off day - sorry.

Openremote does much more than just send UDP - that's just all I've used it for. It's UI is completely customizable and it meets all your needs and two out of three of your wants (no Nest yet). Well worth a look if you have the time.

Thanks. Will take a closer look

 

[roussell]

Hey Mark - Have you looked at Elve yet? I'm a happy Indigo user but have been watching Elve since John started on it. It's an absolutely incredible package and is now free with plans to be open(ish)-sourced in some fashion in the future. There is an Android and iDevice Client and the designer seems pretty robust as well. If I were to jump back in the the Microsoft world, this would be the only choice I'd consider. 
 
I believe OpenHAB is the best open-sourced offering available today. I would use it but I have such a negative visceral reaction to Java that I don't know if I could sleep at night with it running my house...   :throwup:  Just my personal opinion though, I know millions use the technology every day (the company I work for adding about 150 Java developers to that count too)...
 
Also, you should definitely post your reasons for not choosing Indigo over on their forums. I'm sure Matt and Jay would appreciate the constructive criticism. There probably isn't much they can do about the Python-backend but perhaps some of your other concerns are on their radar. I chose it primarily because I have an All-Apple + Insteon & Sonos home and enjoy Python development so it was a natural fit for me. The iDevice interface is seriously lacking from a UX standpoint these days but I know they're working it so I'm content to wait. I'm (very) slowly writing my own HTML5 based interface and I appreciate the powerful Restful backend with XML and JSON support Indigo has.
 
Keep posting your progress please. I'm interested to see how this works out for you.
 
Best of luck,
Terry

 

[ano]

Also, you should definitely post your reasons for not choosing Indigo over on their forums. I'm sure Matt and Jay would appreciate the constructive criticism.

I looked at Indigo 10 years ago, since I use all Macs and am running a Mac OS X Server. Back then Indigo didn't support a HAI OMNI Pro II and it didn't support UPB. Instead it supported X-10.
 
Fast forward 10 years, and Indigo still doesn't support an HAI OMNI Pro II and it still doesn't support UPB (let alone Zigbee or some newer technology.).  I find it pretty hard to believe that this would be the first time Matt and Jay heard that suggestion.
 
I tried ELVE around a year ago (I think) and at that time it would not connect to my HAI OMNI Pro II for some unknown reason. Instead it would just crash. (This is when you had to buy it.)  I contacted the authors and they were very little help, basically saying "it seems to work for others so it must be you."  Then they closed the company, now its sorta free, presumably because it wasn't selling.
 
I don't know about others, but for me a home automation systems takes a great deal of time, so the price of the software is very small compared to the hundreds of hours it takes to get going.  Neither Indigo or ELVE has inspired confidence in me that they are worth my time. Just my opinion.

 

[Automate]

@ano, how do you do Zigbee with HAI OmniPro II / CQC ?

 

[roussell]

I looked at Indigo 10 years ago, since I use all Macs and am running a Mac OS X Server. Back then Indigo didn't support a HAI OMNI Pro II and it didn't support UPB. Instead it supported X-10.
 
Fast forward 10 years, and Indigo still doesn't support an HAI OMNI Pro II and it still doesn't support UPB (let alone Zigbee or some newer technology.).  I find it pretty hard to believe that this would be the first time Matt and Jay heard that suggestion.
 
I tried ELVE around a year ago (I think) and at that time it would not connect to my HAI OMNI Pro II for some unknown reason. Instead it would just crash. (This is when you had to buy it.)  I contacted the authors and they were very little help, basically saying "it seems to work for others so it must be you."  Then they closed the company, now its sorta free, presumably because it wasn't selling.
 
I don't know about others, but for me a home automation systems takes a great deal of time, so the price of the software is very small compared to the hundreds of hours it takes to get going.  Neither Indigo or ELVE has inspired confidence in me that they are worth my time. Just my opinion.

 
I haven't seen anyone mention either HAI OPII or UPB on the Indigo forums in years. UPB would probably take integration from Matt & Jay, but and OPII driver could be written by a user as a third-party driver. My guess is that for whatever reason, there just isn't enough of a demand for either. For my needs, it's almost perfect: Mac based, Insteon, Sonos, Ademco security panel, and the ability to easily extend for my custom DIY hardware with custom drivers... It does support ZWave now, and I believe M&J have interest in zigbee as it becomes more prevalent in the space. As with everything though YMMV...
 
When it comes to expensive HA software, the argument I always hear is that it's a small price of the total package. That's a valid argument -- IF -- it's a line item on an all-in purchase OR you look at the system as a whole. It's more noticeable (and less bearable) when HA is a hobby and the rest of life chips away at your disposable income forcing hardware pieces to be bought piece-meal though the year(s). Then a $1000+ piece of software becomes a major purchase, and if a $150-200 piece of the software covers 90% of one's needs and they can live-with, or work-around the 10% deficiency, why spend the extra money?
 
Take for example CQC - an excellent piece of software by any measure - Dean has done an amazing job on it. I have 9 iPad 1st Gens as controllers in the house (Each bought 'along the way' and none costing over $150, the cheapest was only $70) plus 3 household iPhones.  So if I wanted in on CQC it looks like I'd need the "Diamond" or "Mercury" tier and/or some combinations of options so well over $1000 (lets say 8-10 iPad 1s), plus $95/year (or 2 Insteon switches/yr). Is it worth it? For me, no, I don't see the value. For others the answer is yes, and that's fine. Elve was priced similarly and so for me it was lumped into a similar "no" bucket for me. Also remember that Dean was a heartbeat away from open-sourcing/giving away CQC a few years ago so again a similar situation to Elve. I looked at CQC years ago - when it was less-expensive and I had a better job - but at the time Dean had no interest in supporting Insteon when I asked so like your dilemma with OPII/UPB/Indigo, I couldn't move forward with it.
 
I don't bill my time per hour anymore, and HA is the thing I do when everything/one else has been taken-care-of. It's my diversion instead of parking myself in front of the television. So for me, "worth my time" takes on a different connotation, one that is lumped in with riding the motorcycle, or lounging by the pool; it's a recreation activity. As to inspiring confidence - I just checked the Mac Mini (eBay, $180) that Indigo runs on; it's been up 237 days. Indigo has never missed a command or schedule. It is the most stable back-end I've personally used so for me, it's is the standard by which others are judged. Like you though, all just my opinion... 
 
For the OP, I believe the best action is exactly what he's doing - Trying several products to see what he can and can't live with. 

 

[jaymartin]

I looked at Indigo 10 years ago, since I use all Macs and am running a Mac OS X Server. Back then Indigo didn't support a HAI OMNI Pro II and it didn't support UPB. Instead it supported X-10.
 
Fast forward 10 years, and Indigo still doesn't support an HAI OMNI Pro II and it still doesn't support UPB (let alone Zigbee or some newer technology.).  I find it pretty hard to believe that this would be the first time Matt and Jay heard that suggestion.

 
Actually, we've had very few requests for UPB (fewer than 25 - we keep counts) and even fewer for the OMNI. I don't believe UPB ever reached critical mass really, though reliable market share numbers are difficult to find. We do, in fact, natively support INSTEON and Z-Wave, both of which are "some newer technology"  . And, via our plugin API, 3rd parties are adding a lot of other technologies, devices, and functionality (we have 96 3rd party plugins that do a variety of things).
 
We hope ZigBee will eventually be the leading technology given it's openness, though there are still some standardization issues. Unfortunately, consumer DIY device availability is still relatively low, though it has been picking up particularly in the area of locks and sensors, so it's something we're watching very carefully.

 

[pete_c]

Thank you Jay!
 
Here I tinker with a variety of technologies relating to home automation using the HAI OPII panel and software.  The OPII panel talks X10 (still today), UPB and Z-Wave today.  The software talks X10, Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave.  Just starting to play with Zigbee interfaces.
 
Here relating to just powerline have moved my primary lighting controls (switches) to UPB.  It just works.
 
I am still using X10 and mostly because it just works.  I have though updated my X10 primary stuff to Jeff Volp's X10 stuff.  I don't pay much attention these days.
 
I consider the lighting, security, HVAC stuff just the heartbeat of the home; "automated" past tense I guess?

 

[mark_anderson_us]

Hey Mark - Have you looked at Elve yet? I'm a happy Indigo user but have been watching Elve since John started on it. It's an absolutely incredible package and is now free with plans to be open(ish)-sourced in some fashion in the future. There is an Android and iDevice Client and the designer seems pretty robust as well. If I were to jump back in the the Microsoft world, this would be the only choice I'd consider. 
 
I believe OpenHAB is the best open-sourced offering available today. I would use it but I have such a negative visceral reaction to Java that I don't know if I could sleep at night with it running my house...   :throwup:  Just my personal opinion though, I know millions use the technology every day (the company I work for adding about 150 Java developers to that count too)...
 
Also, you should definitely post your reasons for not choosing Indigo over on their forums. I'm sure Matt and Jay would appreciate the constructive criticism. There probably isn't much they can do about the Python-backend but perhaps some of your other concerns are on their radar. I chose it primarily because I have an All-Apple + Insteon & Sonos home and enjoy Python development so it was a natural fit for me. The iDevice interface is seriously lacking from a UX standpoint these days but I know they're working it so I'm content to wait. I'm (very) slowly writing my own HTML5 based interface and I appreciate the powerful Restful backend with XML and JSON support Indigo has.
 
Keep posting your progress please. I'm interested to see how this works out for you.
 
Best of luck,
Terry

Haven't tried Elve.
 
I really don't have a good feeling about it.

• Supposed to be open source now, this post doesn't give me any comfort: http://www.codecoretechnologies.com/community/index.php?topic=1892.0.
• There are no galleries (even the community only has about 4 sets of screens)
• Seems to be one guy
• RestAPI uses XML (not JSON)
• Proprietary scripting engine (what's wrong with one of the standards)

Bottom line, I want to moving forward and I don't think a product in limbo is a step forward.
 
Regarding javascript, I had the same opinion as you until a few months ago. I did a project at work in Javascript and read a lot about it. It's quite an impressive language, but does have some really dumb "features" like variable hoisting, auto semi-colon insertion. Once you know about these though it's easy to work around them.
 
I did post the limitations I found in Indigo and Matt replied "we have a lot of features planned". I understand the reluctance to set release dates, but the lack of a roadmap is worrying. I don't know if a feature I need is gonna be 3 weeks, 3 versions or 3 decades away. I can't move forward on "we may implement it in the future"
 
Regards
 
mark

 

[ano]

@ano, how do you do Zigbee with HAI OmniPro II / CQC ?

The HAI/Leviton OmniPro II natively supports Zigbee Home Automation.  HAI makes some ZigBee devices, like the OmniStat2, and some power switches, and it also works with thirds part devices, sometime partially.  The Omni can usually control the devices, but extra features, like power usage isn't always fully supported. CQC can also control these devices through the Omni. Although CQC doesn't natively support Zigbee, it controls devices fine through the Omni.
 
Now, having said that, its not perfect. HAI tested the Omni with very few non-HAI devices, and initially some third-party Zigbee devices didn't work well, but when I reported the problems to HAI, they did fix them (at least up to the point where they were purchased by Leviton.) 
 
Also, as I have said in other posts, CQC hasn't updated their HAI interface in many years, so newer features that HAI supports, CQC doesn't support. For example HAI Zigbee modules will report the power used by a load, and PC Access can display it, but CQC can't access it. 

 

[Dean Roddey]

Now that we have defined a 'resource monitor' device class, we can add support for that kind of power usage reporting. This will allow any driver to generically expose resource usage of whatever type.

 

[roussell]

Can't really argue with anything you say except that with regard to Indigo, Matt and Jay have never released any kind of roadmap or planned feature-set. Personally I don't like it either, but that's the way it is so I deal with it... More importantly; Javascript != Java...  I love javascript - I don't like Java - they're different animals entirely. I use javascript all the time.
 
FWIW I think OpenHAB is pretty awesome (besides the java part. ), keep posting your adventures with it.
 
Terry
 
 

Haven't tried Elve.
 
I really don't have a good feeling about it.

• Supposed to be open source now, this post doesn't give me any comfort: http://www.codecoretechnologies.com/community/index.php?topic=1892.0.
• There are no galleries (even the community only has about 4 sets of screens)
• Seems to be one guy
• RestAPI uses XML (not JSON)
• Proprietary scripting engine (what's wrong with one of the standards)

Bottom line, I want to moving forward and I don't think a product in limbo is a step forward.
 
Regarding javascript, I had the same opinion as you until a few months ago. I did a project at work in Javascript and read a lot about it. It's quite an impressive language, but does have some really dumb "features" like variable hoisting, auto semi-colon insertion. Once you know about these though it's easy to work around them.
 
I did post the limitations I found in Indigo and Matt replied "we have a lot of features planned". I understand the reluctance to set release dates, but the lack of a roadmap is worrying. I don't know if a feature I need is gonna be 3 weeks, 3 versions or 3 decades away. I can't move forward on "we may implement it in the future"
 
Regards
 
mark