Deadbolts Revisited
- Thread starter stacyh3
- Start date
I'm curious what folks are doing and/or looking for here.
I would not want anything that could be broken into to provide a contact closure to disarm the system. Presumably, that'd be the best one could do with "hacking" one of those other systems.
Therefore, the solution must involve a keypad outside or use of RFIDs.
True?
If so, isn't RF already supported in Elk?
That said, I don't like it since it doesn't require you to know something, only to have it.
It seems to me that the answer goes back to an externally mounted Elk keypad.
If there's another approach, please help me understand what the mechanics / logic side of it might be to remain secure.
Thanks!
I would not want anything that could be broken into to provide a contact closure to disarm the system. Presumably, that'd be the best one could do with "hacking" one of those other systems.
Therefore, the solution must involve a keypad outside or use of RFIDs.
True?
If so, isn't RF already supported in Elk?
That said, I don't like it since it doesn't require you to know something, only to have it.
It seems to me that the answer goes back to an externally mounted Elk keypad.
If there's another approach, please help me understand what the mechanics / logic side of it might be to remain secure.
Thanks!
Is anyone interested in an Alarm system that disarms when you unlock your door. If teh door is forced it goes into alarm but if you unlock the deadbolt with your key it disarms the alarm.
To arm you would push the away button, open and close your door and lock the deadbolt to arm. You can also arm Stay etc.
Just curious to see if anyone is interested. The company I work for is about to release the latest version of this system. Our distriutors have shown a high interest but I was wondering about the opinions of CT members.
To arm you would push the away button, open and close your door and lock the deadbolt to arm. You can also arm Stay etc.
Just curious to see if anyone is interested. The company I work for is about to release the latest version of this system. Our distriutors have shown a high interest but I was wondering about the opinions of CT members.
I can only speak for what I was looking for when I started the thread. I want a deadbolt that can be controlled by an outdoor keypad but can also be locked/unlocked from inside the house with a normal deadbolt lever. That way, you can be secure if you have a power failure, but still safe because you can get out of the house if needed. The lock shouldn't require constant power to maintain state. It should only require power to change state. It fails "in state" rather than safe/secure. That's what led me to the "powerbolt hack" that I mentioned previously. In my case, the powerbolt is on the door from the house into the garage and the keypad will be outside the garage doors.
My scenario is that I want to be able to key in my code to gain access to the garage via the outer garage door and that should unlock the deadbolt too.
Stacy
My scenario is that I want to be able to key in my code to gain access to the garage via the outer garage door and that should unlock the deadbolt too.
Stacy
Steve
Senior Member
IMHO I think that defeats the purpose of security. What if you were forced back into your home? You unlock the door and system disarms. With code based disarming you can at least enter a duress code. Granted it is convenient on a daily basis and chances of forcible entry are small, but if I am investing in good security I would want it as tight and foolproof as possible. I don't think this, or keyfobs or RFID or any of them are as good as the old fashioned code yet.Digger said:
huggy59
Active Member
Stacyh3, I know what you are looking for and while it was on the market a while back (or at least a hackable rf-based system like what you're looking for), that was two years ago or more. It is no longer being made or sold. I had two of them in my previous home, but left them there expecting to be able to get new ones. Alas, no longer.
I have forgotten the model name, but they were Kwikset (Black and Decker) units and used an RF remote that had a lock and unlock button, as well as a garage door button and a light on/off button on the key fob. They were battery powered with AA batteries that sat in the housing on the inside of the door, and power was only applied to operate the deadbolt to change its position. Internally there was a twist lever and externally there was a standard Kwikset cylinder lock.
Accessories included additional fobs, a battery-powered keypad that mounted outside, like some garage door keypads, and a plug-in module that would allow you to turn on/off a lamp remotely.
The RF unit used the Genie code rotating technology, and for $50 you could get a receiver that was compatible for your garage door (or HA system!) that would work with the garage door button on the remote. It was great - worked really well for us on my Craftsman garage door opener, which was also still in use.
I wish they were still being made or I could find an outlet for a few of them. The newer systems don't have the capability to have one fob on your keychain for the various doors of your house.
I have forgotten the model name, but they were Kwikset (Black and Decker) units and used an RF remote that had a lock and unlock button, as well as a garage door button and a light on/off button on the key fob. They were battery powered with AA batteries that sat in the housing on the inside of the door, and power was only applied to operate the deadbolt to change its position. Internally there was a twist lever and externally there was a standard Kwikset cylinder lock.
Accessories included additional fobs, a battery-powered keypad that mounted outside, like some garage door keypads, and a plug-in module that would allow you to turn on/off a lamp remotely.
The RF unit used the Genie code rotating technology, and for $50 you could get a receiver that was compatible for your garage door (or HA system!) that would work with the garage door button on the remote. It was great - worked really well for us on my Craftsman garage door opener, which was also still in use.
I wish they were still being made or I could find an outlet for a few of them. The newer systems don't have the capability to have one fob on your keychain for the various doors of your house.
Its a secret.... I will have to kill you if I tell you :lol:
Basically the system still does not require a code. When you unlock the door and enter the premise the system will sound an entry delay tone. You need to push a certian button as if disarming within a certian time frame and by doing so the system knows you are in duress.
So while the bad guy has a gun to your head as you enter you tell him you must shut off the alarm or the cops will come. When you shut it off you are actually tripping the ambush/panic.
If you do nothing the entry delay times out and the system disarms.
If you think it through it is actually pretty neat. The customers seem to like it.
Basically the system still does not require a code. When you unlock the door and enter the premise the system will sound an entry delay tone. You need to push a certian button as if disarming within a certian time frame and by doing so the system knows you are in duress.
So while the bad guy has a gun to your head as you enter you tell him you must shut off the alarm or the cops will come. When you shut it off you are actually tripping the ambush/panic.
If you do nothing the entry delay times out and the system disarms.
If you think it through it is actually pretty neat. The customers seem to like it.
I'm fairly new to Cocoon, although I have lurked AND learned from dozens of great threads and many great posters. Great vibe here - friendly and helpful.
Not to hijack, but in response to Gregoryx's question, my interests are somewhat aligned with Stacyh3, although my application is main house doors and not garage doors.
I was originally thinking along the lines of using the M1G and something like this for access control - but then I started thinking about single point of failure risk - what would happen if the M1G, Power, Keypad, Prox Reader or Electric Deadbolt failed? I wanted to be able to easily issue different levels of access (days of the week - or time of the day), using different access technologies (Pin, Prox Card/Fob), to a variety of people - but I wanted to force some people to produce multiple credentials before allowing access (a contractor or cleaning person would be less likely to use the excuse that both their Prox Card AND Pin were stolen and used by someone else to gain access).
I also wanted a fully integrated system where the Keypad, Prox Reader and Key all opened the same lock - so that the risk of a forgotten Pin, lost Prox Card/Fob or Key would not permanently lock someone out of the house. I considered using a door strike solution - but I am a bit concerned about how robust they are (I admittedly need to do more research). Finally, as much as I would prefer consolidating all access control within the M1G - that route would effectively preclude anyone else in the family from administering the access system - as it would likely be too complex for them to deal with.
So, I'm trying to reduce or eliminate risk of failure - and keep it simple at the same time. No easy task. My current wish list:
1. Robust, weatherproof, humidity proof system from a high-end manufacturer
2. Hybrid system that works both manually and electronically
3. Battery and hardwire operated - with battery serving as mini UPS
4. Inside house: traditional manual operating controls
5. Outside house: three access methods (Keypad, Prox Card/Fob, Bump-Proof Key)
6. Bump-Proof Key: backup access in case Pin is forgotten, Prox/Fob are misplaced or Power is lost
7. System fails "in state" without requirement of voltage to do so
8. Ability to require single or dual credentials (Keypad or Prox, Keypad and Prox)
9. Remote control inputs that allow M1G or switch to unlock the door remotely
10. Relay contacts to trigger lights, camera, M1G rules when any button is pressed or door is unlocked
11. Ambush feature (programmable key presses triggers alarm, camera
12. Easy pin and prox enrollment and access privileges programming at lock or with PC
13. Day, Time & Temporary access programming (contractors, housekeeping personnel, etc)
14. Nice - but not essential: extractable audit trail based on real-time clock and using lock or PC
The closest I have found is something like this made by Alarm Lock, a division of Napco) and it seems like it might accomodate a Schlage Bump-Proof Primus cylinder.
I'm not really comfortable with the concept of disarming the system with the same single credential or factor that is used to unlock the door. The last thing I'd want is for a lost wallet or purse containing the home address - along with a written Pin number, Prox Card or Fob - to fall into the wrong hands. Killing two birds with one stone is certainly convenient, but it's a bit too easy for bad guys to unlock the house AND disarm the security system.
For similar reasons, I am uncomfortable with mounting an Elk keypad outside of the house. Seems to give away too much information about what's inside the house and provides too much access to a critical component - to those interested in vandalizing or defeating it.
I could see using one credential (Pin, Prox, Key) to unlock the door - and a completely different credential (Pin, Prox, Key) to disarm the M1G. However, I don't think I'd opt for using the same Pin or "hardware" factor (Prox/Fob or Key) to open and disarm both - as my instincts tell me it is better to limit access to "something that you have" and "something that you know".
FYI: Here is the second part of a good article on bumping and bump-proof locks (Schlage Primus, Evva MCS, Medeco M3/ARX) - and here is a good but long video on the same topic (try to at least watch the first 10 minutes or so if you can). It is very enlightening and very disturbing.
I'd love to know if there are any other contenders for this type of product - and apologies to Stacyh3 for interrupting your thread.
Thanks
Not to hijack, but in response to Gregoryx's question, my interests are somewhat aligned with Stacyh3, although my application is main house doors and not garage doors.
I was originally thinking along the lines of using the M1G and something like this for access control - but then I started thinking about single point of failure risk - what would happen if the M1G, Power, Keypad, Prox Reader or Electric Deadbolt failed? I wanted to be able to easily issue different levels of access (days of the week - or time of the day), using different access technologies (Pin, Prox Card/Fob), to a variety of people - but I wanted to force some people to produce multiple credentials before allowing access (a contractor or cleaning person would be less likely to use the excuse that both their Prox Card AND Pin were stolen and used by someone else to gain access).
I also wanted a fully integrated system where the Keypad, Prox Reader and Key all opened the same lock - so that the risk of a forgotten Pin, lost Prox Card/Fob or Key would not permanently lock someone out of the house. I considered using a door strike solution - but I am a bit concerned about how robust they are (I admittedly need to do more research). Finally, as much as I would prefer consolidating all access control within the M1G - that route would effectively preclude anyone else in the family from administering the access system - as it would likely be too complex for them to deal with.
So, I'm trying to reduce or eliminate risk of failure - and keep it simple at the same time. No easy task. My current wish list:
1. Robust, weatherproof, humidity proof system from a high-end manufacturer
2. Hybrid system that works both manually and electronically
3. Battery and hardwire operated - with battery serving as mini UPS
4. Inside house: traditional manual operating controls
5. Outside house: three access methods (Keypad, Prox Card/Fob, Bump-Proof Key)
6. Bump-Proof Key: backup access in case Pin is forgotten, Prox/Fob are misplaced or Power is lost
7. System fails "in state" without requirement of voltage to do so
8. Ability to require single or dual credentials (Keypad or Prox, Keypad and Prox)
9. Remote control inputs that allow M1G or switch to unlock the door remotely
10. Relay contacts to trigger lights, camera, M1G rules when any button is pressed or door is unlocked
11. Ambush feature (programmable key presses triggers alarm, camera
12. Easy pin and prox enrollment and access privileges programming at lock or with PC
13. Day, Time & Temporary access programming (contractors, housekeeping personnel, etc)
14. Nice - but not essential: extractable audit trail based on real-time clock and using lock or PC
The closest I have found is something like this made by Alarm Lock, a division of Napco) and it seems like it might accomodate a Schlage Bump-Proof Primus cylinder.
I'm not really comfortable with the concept of disarming the system with the same single credential or factor that is used to unlock the door. The last thing I'd want is for a lost wallet or purse containing the home address - along with a written Pin number, Prox Card or Fob - to fall into the wrong hands. Killing two birds with one stone is certainly convenient, but it's a bit too easy for bad guys to unlock the house AND disarm the security system.
For similar reasons, I am uncomfortable with mounting an Elk keypad outside of the house. Seems to give away too much information about what's inside the house and provides too much access to a critical component - to those interested in vandalizing or defeating it.
I could see using one credential (Pin, Prox, Key) to unlock the door - and a completely different credential (Pin, Prox, Key) to disarm the M1G. However, I don't think I'd opt for using the same Pin or "hardware" factor (Prox/Fob or Key) to open and disarm both - as my instincts tell me it is better to limit access to "something that you have" and "something that you know".
FYI: Here is the second part of a good article on bumping and bump-proof locks (Schlage Primus, Evva MCS, Medeco M3/ARX) - and here is a good but long video on the same topic (try to at least watch the first 10 minutes or so if you can). It is very enlightening and very disturbing.
I'd love to know if there are any other contenders for this type of product - and apologies to Stacyh3 for interrupting your thread.
Thanks
Has anyone found a good solution yet? Basically what I'm looking for is using RFID for when I pull up in the car open the garage door and unlock in inside garage door but don't disarm. Once inside you'd have to enter a pin to disarm. Is the best option to hack one of those RF deadbolts from keylesspro?
Thanks.
Thanks.
