Desire to start automating lighting

[jenhazelton]

I have to say a HUGE thanks to everyone. I wish I would have posted earlier, because I have a better understanding of the whole picture. Also, I am glad that I am not the only one that has struggled so much with a decision.

I think I am just going to "play" around with different technologies, probably Zwave, UBP and Insteon, so look how I have been swayed h34r:.

I can't say how much every post has helped.

Thanks,
Jen

 

[elcano]

Excellent summary, tanstaaf1!

I would only add two things:

Insteon Cons: Very few devices available besides typical wall or in-box swtiches/dimmers (should I say none?). No screw-on devices and not fixture relay/dimmers.

UPB Note: Its certainly recommended by professionals because it works. But also because they make a good profit margin. An UPB manufacturer made it clear that they were not competing in price because they are targetting other market. I interpret it this way: a market were the professionals are incentivated to promote the sale of UPB because they get better margins there. Nothing bad with this model - actually, its a big market were we can help other non-technical people to do HA too.

 

[jlehnert]

NY Times had an article today about how HA is becoming "affordable". It's pretty obvious that it was a something arranged by a Control4 dealer. The same talk about Control4, Zigbee, and "standards based".
I laugh when it starts out talking about becoming more affordable for everyone, then mentions that the homeowner in question is the manager of a hedge fund, who spent "only" $10k for his two bedroom apartment. It does mention "an inexpensive alternative" called X10. h34r:

 

[ginnytr]

suggest you pick up a few Insteon and UPB and play with them. For maybe $500 you will have enough functional switches to figure out for yourself which you want to deploy more fully.

One parting thought (hopefully I won't have any others: You CAN use more than one type of switch in your system as long as you are planning on a central HA controller to tie things together. So this isn't really an "all or nothing" choice as long as you select open standards and go slowly.

I'm jumping in here because Jen is asking all the questions I've also been going over as I try to figure out how to add automation to the house we are having built without breaking the bank and also having a system that I know and can add on to myself. I'm another geeky girl who has been fascinated by the idea of HA ever since 'The Clapper' came out.

This forum was very helpful in figuring out all the protocols. I'm still trying to figure out if I should install a structured wiring system, and how extensive it should be. Is there much wiring necessary for RF systems? The stuff I've found generally recommends 2 RG6 + 2-4 cat5e + 2 speakers; is this overkill and is there much of this that can be replaced wirelessly yet?

It sounds like maybe I should focus on which controller to get and make sure it can handle a variety of protocols (UPB, INSTEON, Zwave, X10, Lutron). Is the controller just a dedicated PC/server? Recommendations? What about user friendly software? I would like to manage the system with a PC and have it accessible on the web. I want to make sure I have the backbone of the system in for the future. Then I can mess around with and tweak it over the next 10 years for fun.

Can anyone enlighten me about Vantage systems? What protocol are they using? Is it just another 'give me all your money' proprietary system?

Right now it feels like I'm wading through the muck trying to figure this all out, but I like the challenge and have about 6 months to plan. :blink:

 

[royalj7]

This forum was very helpful in figuring out all the protocols. I'm still trying to figure out if I should install a structured wiring system, and how extensive it should be. Is there much wiring necessary for RF systems? The stuff I've found generally recommends 2 RG6 + 2-4 cat5e + 2 speakers; is this overkill and is there much of this that can be replaced wirelessly yet?
t sounds like maybe I should focus on which controller to get and make sure it can handle a variety of protocols (UPB, INSTEON, Zwave, X10, Lutron). Is the controller just a dedicated PC/server? Recommendations

Welcome! A structured wiring system is the backbone of most home automation and home theater systems. Wireless capabilities are getting better every year, but I'm of the mind wireless is only used as last resort. The performance is not as good, there are reliability and security issues also. I think the standard for a SW system is 2 RG6 and 2 CAT5e at each drop. There was just a great guide done by CT covering alot of what you need to know about wiring up your home. From your post it sounds like you will be working with new construction? If so, I would say you really can't over wire at this stage. If it is existing construction, that’s a little bit different :blink:

I think you are on the right track with the controller. Picking a core system to build around and tinker with allows for gradual expansion of the HA system. There are two types of controllers, hardware ones like Elk, HAI, and Stargate and software programs running on PCs like CQC, Homeseer, etc. I think the general feeling, and this is by no means the only opinion, is using a hardware controller for your more critical systems, ie lights, security, HVAC is preferred over a PC solution. Lots of folks use an Elk or HAI Omni for those systems and interface it with one of the software packages. These provide great interfaces, web capabilities, and some "wow" functions the hardware controllers don't have

Anyways, good luck and keep asking questions. The folks here are some of the most helpful you will meet.

--Jamie

 

[pkarakis]

ginnytr,
I was going through the same thing you are about a year ago before building my new house. As far as the structured wiring, royalj7 is absolutely right, you can't overwire in new construction. I have been in my house now for a little over 6 months and I am going back to add more wire to the first floor. I ran 2 RG6 and 2 CAT 6 to 2 locations in each room, plus 2 speaker dorps in each room. I also wired for expansion to touch panels later (although the itch has me getting some now). I went with an Elan system for whole-house audio/video distribution and an Elk M1G for security and "critical" sytems like Lighting and HVAC. I also wanted control of every light in the house. For lighting, I looked at Vantage, Lutron and some of the wireless systems many people mention here. I don't like wireless unless there is no other solution (just my own thinking). Vantage and Lutron required home-run electrical wiring, which is expensive. I also thought that down the road, if for some reason I wanted to change systems, I couldn't do it easily because the wiring all runs to one spot, and not the switch locations (for their centralized systems). I ended up using a system by EDT that wires into the standard electrical layout and then has a control cat5e connecting each switch. This allowed me to control all of the lights in the house without home-run electrial wiring, and it cost a lot less than one of the vantage or Lutron systems. This works well for new construction, but would be very difficult for exisiting. The system has been very reliable and was very easy to program since it works with the Elk M1G controller.

Overall, I am very happy with my choices and I am ready to start finishing the basement.

This forum has been very helpful in many of my choices and I continue to get great ideas from all of the members here.

 

[ginnytr]

Thanks for the welcome and the great info. I have re-read this thread 3 times and keep learning. Yes, it is new construction and I'm pretty sure we can get through the wiring aspect--I just wasn't sure if it was going to become outdated soon. Sounds like we are on for wiring up everything. I'm still searching on what to wire for the switches. I think I need a cat5 run to the switches, too, but not sure how this looks with the high voltage lines in there.

Is Lutron something that can be added on to with insteon, or is it proprietary? A salesman was pushing for homeworks 4 and then expanding from there, but I'm not sure if this will limit me to only Lutron products (aside from the 'looks' of the switches). Is it possible to get a package for the main floor (ouch $) then use insteon in bedrooms and basement.

pkarakis--I thought I had the structured wiring figured out, but you say I need to home run all the regular electrical wiring, too, for some systems (Vantage)? I was just going to let the builder's electrician do the regular lights, outlets and switches, then we would do the homerun lines for rg6's, cat5's, and speakers, adding cat5 to switches (for future touchpads or communicating switches--is this correct?). Any links you can refer me to?

I think that UPB is out due to the buzzing...My husband and son have bionic hearing and are sensitive to noises--probably a sign of extreme intelligence, but I think I would be in trouble if I installed something that buzzed at the flip of every switch. Does insteon have this?

After IVB's screen shots I'm going to start digging into CQC + Elk/HAI/Stargate options; this is the first I've seen of CQC. Can Homeseer have user-friendly screens such as his? All the ones I've seen are kindof a spreadsheet layout. Is this basically the DIYs version of a wired system like Vantage? I'm just barely beginning to understand that system, too, but our window subcontractor is a Vantage installer and it is his passion.

Jen-Did you decide on what you will be doing? Is your wiring already in place? I would love to hear about anything new you've learned/experienced.

I've browsed quite a few HA sites and it seems like I've found the place to learn. Thanks!

 

[Squintz]

Is control4 even available to the general public? I thought it was only for sale through professional installers. With that said I would count Control4 out.

I personally use 24 z-wave devices. One post above stated that the devices do not support live status. That is not true. The thermostats and just about any device that is not a light switch can and probably will support live status updates.

I have not yet tried UPB but I am leaning towards trying it because people like Martin (forum member) who sell the products say they get great feedback about them.

You mentioned that you would just try a few of them out. I think this is a great idea. The great thing about using Do it yourself (DIY) home automation controllers such as CQC and the Elk M1 Gold is that you can mix them and leave them mixed. It takes a little effort on your part to integrate multiple technologies because you might want one light switch to control another technology but the good news is that it is usually possible to do this.

I would certainly look into purchasing an elk as the brains of your lighting system. The elk will allow you to controll both UPB and Z-wave which are my top choices. To make it a little more powerful I would also give CQC a try as it has the ability to control the elk.

With all that said if you can not convince your husband to go for it then I think you should look into who is single and who is not on these forums :lol: I don't know if there is a man in this world who would not like to turn his lights on/off from the sofa

Happy Cocooning and Please visit the live chat room sometime.

 

[pkarakis]

pkarakis--I thought I had the structured wiring figured out, but you say I need to home run all the regular electrical wiring, too, for some systems (Vantage)? I was just going to let the builder's electrician do the regular lights, outlets and switches, then we would do the homerun lines for rg6's, cat5's, and speakers, adding cat5 to switches (for future touchpads or communicating switches--is this correct?). Any links you can refer me to?

Some of the "higher end" lighing controls like Vantage and Centralite require that electrical wiring be homerun to a load control center. All that is run to the switch locations is a control wire (cat5). The system I am using, EDT i-line www.edt.biz lets the builder put in standard wiring and then you put in a cat5e daisy-chained to each switch location. You can find more info on their web site. For potential touchscreens, you would need RG6 and cat5e to those locations. Also keep in mind that for the speakers in each room, run those through the potential location in each room for the volume control in case you end up using some kind of system that needs the speaker wire to run through either a volume control or keypad.

 

[ginnytr]

For potential touchscreens, is the RG6 for video distribution? We aren't interested in going quite that far. We're a pretty low media intake family. Or would this be for audio? It would be great to have audio in each room with a volume control. Won't be able to afford a touchpad in every room. For future audio, would cat5 and RG6 be required?

Sounds like we may need to go with something like EDT 'cause I'm not to sure how flexible our builder will be on changing from his traditional wiring. Am I correct in thinking that this can be combined with a HAI or Elk security system/HA controller?

 

[royalj7]

After IVB's screen shots I'm going to start digging into CQC + Elk/HAI/Stargate options; this is the first I've seen of CQC. Can Homeseer have user-friendly screens such as his? All the ones I've seen are kindof a spreadsheet layout. Is this basically the DIYs version of a wired system like Vantage? I'm just barely beginning to understand that system, too, but our window subcontractor is a Vantage installer and it is his passion.

Homeseer is usually interfaced by a program called Mainlobby. It have some amazingly slick interfaces. There are multiple "sub" programs that focus on music, DVD watching, weather, etc that you can use or not to dress up your interface. I think CQC strength is in it's distributed nature. Mainlobby/Homeseer is in it's interface. However, both have free trials, so I recommend you trying out both and deciding for yourself. Personally, I was set to use Homeseer/Mainlobby because Mainlobby was just pretty cool , but Homeseer has had a rough rollout of there 2.0 software, so I picked CQC at the time. I have not been following it, but it is quite possible that Homeseer has the bugs worked out and is ready for primetime.

RG6 is not required unless you want a touchscreen at the keypad location. For most music dist. run your 16/4 speaker wire and CAT5 from the headend to the keypad then run 16/2 from the keypad to each speaker. This allows the most flexibility in picking a system, ie Russound, Niles, Xantech , or a A-bus solution.

Just a note on the hardwired lighting systems. What you lose in money, both for the equipment itself and the labor in homerunning your electrical, you gain in rock solid reliability. You can read all through the forums and see people talking about issues with all the powerline technologies. Most of them are not showstoppers, and since most of us are DIY'er what fun would it be without a little tinkering :lol: , but you simply do not have these problems with hardwired systems.

--Jamie

 

[Steve]

RG6 is usually not needed at the TS. I would run an extra Cat5 to future proof yourself there. Also, depending on the TS model, you may need power (most likely unless you use a small POE TS), so don't forget that.

 

[pkarakis]

Steve and royalj7 are right about the RG6 at touch screens unless you want video there, and it doesn't sound like you do.

The EDT system IS hardwired and does not use the powerline, so it is rock solid. It is compatible with both HAI and Elk controllers.

 

[royalj7]

Quite correct, touchscreens don't require coax. I was implying if you have a TS you wanted video capabilities, and that's not true.

--Jamie

 

[markthomas]

Quite correct, touchscreens don't require coax. I was implying if you have a TS you wanted video capabilities, and that's not true.

--Jamie

...and now you're implying that coax is required for video, and that's not true either! :lol: (e.g. Rad I/O)