Desire to start automating lighting

[Steve]

And also keep in mind if you go with the HAI system with the video keypads, you don't need RG6 either. For that HAI system you would put a hub that takes composite NTSC from the cameras and run them to the hub (RCA connectors). Then it is cat5 to the keypads. Just keep in mind the hub requirement in case you are serious about the HAI system...

 

[ginnytr]

You lost me on the 'composite NTSC', but it sounds like it's for security cameras. I'm not planning on going there--too much information and I typically don't worry about security. Plus I think we would have too many false trips with the deer, porcupines, etc.

By 'hub requirements' do you mean the stack of equipment & wiring stuff? I am planning a space in the mechanical room for the structured wiring system and HA controller and eventually a server for music and video.

We just met with our builder and it sounds like homerun cat5e structured wiring system is part of the standard package, so we won't have to be doing that part ourselves. But the standard systems (thermistat, security, etc. don't seem to be communicating type; they are all stand-alone, so now I will focus on what hardware I need to upgrade to at what cost to get it all to 'talk'.

Thanks for the info on the RG6--there may be one or two locations that I would want to pre-wire for video. Thinking about a behind the mirror TV in the bathroom. Why would I want two cat5's at a touchscreen location? The touchscreens and light switches would be non-standard wiring for our builder, so we may need to do it ourselves.

Thanks for the help...I can see how this stuff could become addictive to me!

 

[Steve]

You lost me on the 'composite NTSC', but it sounds like it's for security cameras. I'm not planning on going there--too much information and I typically don't worry about security. Plus I think we would have too many false trips with the deer, porcupines, etc.

Yes, the composite NTSC is for security cameras. If you are not considering the HAI system with video touch screens, do not worry about this.

By 'hub requirements' do you mean the stack of equipment & wiring stuff? I am planning a space in the mechanical room for the structured wiring system and HA controller and eventually a server for music and video.

No, the hub is just an additional connection/wiring point for the HAI system with video touch screens. Its an additional component to the controller itself. Again, if not considering that system, don't worry about it.

Thanks for the info on the RG6--there may be one or two locations that I would want to pre-wire for video. Thinking about a behind the mirror TV in the bathroom. Why would I want two cat5's at a touchscreen location? The touchscreens and light switches would be non-standard wiring for our builder, so we may need to do it ourselves.

Well, you still want RG6 (preferably Quad shield) from your closet or wherever your video source (DSS, Cable, etc) is (most likely also from your closet) to where your tv's will be. Of course if you are planning HD distribution you may want to insure an extra cat5 to those locations as you can distribute HD from the closet to the tv's via cat5 and baluns. The extra TS cat5 is for possible future use - you never know what kind of device you may put there in the future. The general rule is to overwire while you have the chance since you will be grateful you did if you ever need more wire after the walls are closed up. Trust me, my house was built 15 years ago before I considered automation or structured wiring and I am killing myself now retrofitting it. Put every possible wire you can think of now in there at all possible locations you may consider - you will save tons of aggravation and labor costs down the road.

 

[royalj7]

Well, you still want RG6 (preferably Quad shield) from your closet or wherever your video source (DSS, Cable, etc) is (most likely also from your closet) to where your tv's will be. Of course if you are planning HD distribution you may want to insure an extra cat5 to those locations as you can distribute HD from the closet to the tv's via cat5 and baluns. The extra TS cat5 is for possible future use - you never know what kind of device you may put there in the future. The general rule is to overwire while you have the chance since you will be grateful you did if you ever need more wire after the walls are closed up. Trust me, my house was built 15 years ago before I considered automation or structured wiring and I am killing myself now retrofitting it. Put every possible wire you can think of now in there at all possible locations you may consider - you will save tons of aggravation and labor costs down the road.

Steve,

What baluns are you using to send HD over a single Cat5? I know Audio Authority makes a system that will run HD over two Cat5 lines, but have never seen a single wire solution.

ginnytr,

I think in retrofit situations, running HD over Cat5 isn't a bad idea. I have used the above mentioned AA system with acceptable results, however, in new construction I would lean towards running 3 to 5 RG6 solid core wires to each planned HD location.

You could use single wires in this situation (like 3 Belden 1694A) or a bundled cable that had 3, 4, or 5 coax in a single sheath. As been mentioned before, run the wire while you can! You don’t have to plan on using it immediately, you don’t even have to terminate it, you can leave the cable in the wall and just take some pictures of it’s location. The cost of running the wires now is negligible to the cost of doing it after the sheetrock is up.

--Jamie

 

[Steve]

Jamie,

I don't personally use any of them - yet. But Gefen makes some. Here is their HDMI extender. Mario from Cinemar talked about a componet balun in this thread. It references component baluns that can be found here.

I may be totally wrong, but in my thinking of a structured/distributed HD setup you will have your source material (DSS, Cable, OTA, etc) coming from somewhere and going into your automation/wiring closet. Those wire runs will be RG6 Quad Shield. In the closet they will terminate in a receiver, tuner, pc, dvr, etc. Then there will be HD output from those devices that go to the TV's. Those signals will be Component, DVI or HDMI and my understanding is that any of those technologies would be extended via cat5 rather than RG6. RG6 from closet to TV's would only be use for normal RF output and not HD. At least thats my understanding, and if that is right, then I guess I don't see the need for RG6 from the closet to the TV's except for maybe a fallback to RF or testing, etc. I'm sure I could be missing something so it would be great to get more input.

 

[pkarakis]

Steve,
RG6 from closet to TV's could be HD if she were distributing from her receiver via component. For example, my Elan system outputs HD via component to each of my zones.

 

[ginnytr]

OK, I can see this is going to get complicated. I will plan on running cat5e + RG6 anywhere there may be a TV. We are not big video/TV people; we currently receive 3 1/2 channels via rabbit ears . I would like to plan on a theater space in the basement, however. There will be a projector on the ceiling and a drop down screen in front of some shelving.

Would I run the 3-5 RG6 cables to the projector? Why so many? I know nothing about video. Sorry if this sounds lame. The wiring closet is in the mechanical room about 15' from where the projector will be. Could it be received in the closet and then just one RG6 to the projector? I was thinking that there would be a stack of equipment (receiver--we'll probably get some kind of digital cable or satellite since it is rural; what I am going to do with ALL those chanels :unsure: , DVD player, VHS player, CD in the closet or somewhere in the basement. I will go look into projector's today to start learning about this. Would I be able to use a remote control on a projector to change chanels like this? Or is the chanel changing 'stuff' in the closet? Yikes--I'm really lame about TV, but would like to someday have time to enjoy it! My kids keep me too busy right now.

I need to be very cost conscious in this area 'cause my hubby would love to just stick with rabbit ears. Help me get my HGTV back!

 

[royalj7]

Would I run the 3-5 RG6 cables to the projector? Why so many? I know nothing about video. Sorry if this sounds lame. The wiring closet is in the mechanical room about 15' from where the projector will be. Could it be received in the closet and then just one RG6 to the projector? I was thinking that there would be a stack of equipment (receiver--we'll probably get some kind of digital cable or satellite since it is rural; what I am going to do with ALL those chanels , DVD player, VHS player, CD in the closet or somewhere in the basement. I will go look into projector's today to start learning about this. Would I be able to use a remote control on a projector to change chanels like this? Or is the chanel changing 'stuff' in the closet? Yikes--I'm really lame about TV, but would like to someday have time to enjoy it! My kids keep me too busy right now.

I need to be very cost conscious in this area 'cause my hubby would love to just stick with rabbit ears. Help me get my HGTV back!

The reason behind the 3 RG6 is component connections take 3 conductors. Most of your inexpensive (a relative term in this area) matrix switchers are component. Of course, DVI and HDMI are other connections that are gaining in popularity, and you might want to consider them as a "future proof" solution. Something like this would come in handy for connecting up a projector I think
http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/...sRapidRunp1.php

I've never used the product, but I'm trying to think up someway I can get it in my house As you've seen in the thread, there are many ways to get something done and opinions on the best way to do it. In new construction, I wouldn't run HD over Cat5, but there are people that a happy with the results, so it's up to you!

To change the channel you would need an IR receiver somewhere near the screen, and an IR repeater near the piece of equipment you want to control. Xantech has some pretty nice products for this type of thing, but there are other manufactures like Buffalo that make a nice product.

To do something on the cheap, I would wire 3 coax from the projector location to the equipment closet. I assume you are going to have a AV receiver in there, so connect your video sources to the AV receiver and connect the RG6 you ran from the projector to it's video out. Make sure these cables are very close to each other in overall length. Run one Cat5 from the equipment closet to where you want your ir receiver...usually somewhere in front of the viewing area. You can use 3 wires from the Cat5 to hook the ir receiver to a connecting block...a 1 zone jobby should be fine. Then use an ir blaster or stick-on to control the source equipment, ie DVD or cable box, and AV receiver. Hope that answers more questions than it creates.

--Jamie

 

[ginnytr]

Yes, thank you. That confirms basically what I just concluded with our wiring guy. He was suggesting using a RF programmable remote to control the devices in the mechanical room due to it not needing line of sight as IR would. I also saw a really nifty Wi-Fi programmable remote. http://www.bobvila.com/OnTheLevel/Archive/...em-All-117.html Would these seem like viable/future proof ideas? I don't have anything else that would need the IR set-up, so it seems like it maybe more parts/$ needed. I'm going to have a wi-fi network as well as wired, so no new stuff needed?

We will probably start out with basic dvd player on a shelf with a drop down electric screen that would come down in front of the shelves and the projector. Wires would basically make a triangle to the mechanical room. The wire he suggested had 6 wires, then you add the type of connector needed (video, audio). In-ceiling speakers and a sub-woofer, too. Can't wait!

 

[nwavguy]

To get back on the lighting topic, I have a few more comments on Insteon that apply more to new construction than DIY retrofits. There are some good reasons why most pro installers are not using Insteon. I think they're great for the DIYer on a tight budget who only needs to control a few lights. But I'm less thrilled about whole-house control with them.

The switches/dimmers/modules are a pain to set up if you have a lot of them. You have to hold down the button for 10 seconds, run to the other switch or controller (which might be downstairs, etc.) within 4 minutes. If you want to remove a device from the "network" it has to be "unlinked" first or else the network will slow down trying to talk to a device that no longer exists. It's a rather awkward set up if you have a house with 50 insteon devices.

Unlike some other products, which have hardwired master and slave switches, the Insteon products are all masters and must be "soft linked" to each other. This means the electricians can't even test the other switches on 3-way and 4-way circuits when they install everything. The low voltage guys have to program them before they'll work. This also means if they become unprogrammed (see below) they stop working for even manual control.

It's possible for homeowners (especially kids) to screw up the system. If someone holds down a light switch for 10 seconds, and then hits it again, they just unprogrammed that switch (or they could accidentally create a new link, etc.). For DIY folks this is bad enough, but at least they can hopefully figure out what happened and fix it. For a professionally installed system, however, it means a warranty callback and trip out to the house to get the lights working right again.

So, in some ways, you get what you pay for with Insteon? When the cheapest NON-HA decora paddle dimmer at Home Depot is $25, what do you expect from an automated dimmer for $20? As someone else mentioned, there have been reports of relatively high failure rates with Insteon so far.

Spending more money does get you more. Other HA switches can be centrally programmed with PC software which is far more "installer friendly" for bigger installations. They also generally have hard wired multi-way circuits that still work manually without any programming.

But, viewed another way, it's entirely possible to save a few thousand dollars (using lots of ICONs) in a whole house install between Insteon and the next closest competitor, UPB. So is that savings worth the programming hassle, replacing switches that may die, etc?

The other question is which one will have more market share, support, and device options a few years from now? Will it be Insteon, UPB, Z-wave or ??? At least some controllers (i.e. ELK) can control any of them. But keep in mind your investment in the switches and dimmers is likely to be many times what you'll spend on the controller and it's labor intensive to swap out dozens of wall switches/dimmers.

 

[upstatemike]

To get back on the lighting topic, I have a few more comments on Insteon that apply more to new construction than DIY retrofits. There are some good reasons why most pro installers are not using Insteon. I think they're great for the DIYer on a tight budget who only needs to control a few lights. But I'm less thrilled about whole-house control with them.

I have 130 Insteon devices and it is working OK for me.

The switches/dimmers/modules are a pain to set up if you have a lot of them. You have to hold down the button for 10 seconds, run to the other switch or controller (which might be downstairs, etc.) within 4 minutes. If you want to remove a device from the "network" it has to be "unlinked" first or else the network will slow down trying to talk to a device that no longer exists. It's a rather awkward set up if you have a house with 50 insteon devices.

PowerHome software eliminates all of these issues.

Unlike some other products, which have hardwired master and slave switches, the Insteon products are all masters and must be "soft linked" to each other. This means the electricians can't even test the other switches on 3-way and 4-way circuits when they install everything. The low voltage guys have to program them before they'll work. This also means if they become unprogrammed (see below) they stop working for even manual control.

All the electrician has to do is make sure the LED is on to confirm the switch has power. There is no value in having an electrician involved in testing multi-way configurations because the programmer might redefine switch functions from the original spec to meet a customer preference. Hard wired companion switches are always limiting because they require special wiring and once wired their functionality cannot be easily changed. Also UPB and Z-Wave companion switches tend to cost more than ICON master switches.

It's possible for homeowners (especially kids) to screw up the system. If someone holds down a light switch for 10 seconds, and then hits it again, they just unprogrammed that switch (or they could accidentally create a new link, etc.). For DIY folks this is bad enough, but at least they can hopefully figure out what happened and fix it. For a professionally installed system, however, it means a warranty callback and trip out to the house to get the lights working right again.

You actually have to hold a switch in for 10 seconds twice consecutively to put it in unprogram mode. Not that easy to do by mistake.

So, in some ways, you get what you pay for with Insteon? When the cheapest NON-HA decora paddle dimmer at Home Depot is $25, what do you expect from an automated dimmer for $20? ...

Thinner form factor, X-10 compatability, No annoying buzzing, You don't have to live in an all plastic house to accomodate RF routing...

Spending more money does get you more. Other HA switches can be centrally programmed with PC software which is far more "installer friendly" for bigger installations. They also generally have hard wired multi-way circuits that still work manually without any programming.

As noted above PowerHome handles the centralized programming and not everyone will agree that hard wired multi-way circuits are a good thing. (Except for electricians who can charge a premium for wiring them).

But, viewed another way, it's entirely possible to save a few thousand dollars (using lots of ICONs) in a whole house install between Insteon and the next closest competitor, UPB. So is that savings worth the programming hassle, replacing switches that may die, etc?

Once again, this is a non-issue with PowerHome.

The other question is which one will have more market share, support, and device options a few years from now? Will it be Insteon, UPB, Z-wave or ??? At least some controllers (i.e. ELK) can control any of them. But keep in mind your investment in the switches and dimmers is likely to be many times what you'll spend on the controller and it's labor intensive to swap out dozens of wall switches/dimmers.

I expect UPB and Z-Wave to dominate the market in the future much the way Echelon (LONworks) and CBUS do today.

 

[nwavguy]

Thanks Upstatemike for the comments. I didn't realize Powerhome can handle ALL the linking? Are you saying you don't have to do the 10 second hold routine at all? If not, I'm assuming you need to know the 24 bit device ID's instead?

I realize the 3-way circuit issue is a trade-off. But it's inherently less reliable and harder to test multi-way circuits that depend on soft links for even local manual control.

I'm not trying to be overly negative about Insteon, just share my opinions. I'm hoping the right people at SH/Insteon will read these threads and perhaps make some improvements? I'd love to see Insteon dominate the low-end of the market.

To summarize, my wishlist would be something like:

Improved Reliablity - There are lots of reports of Insteon commands being lost, needing large numbers of devices to make the "network" reliable, and even devices that are failing and have to be replaced. With energy costs rising, CFL lamps save lots of real money and being told by SH to replace them with incadescent bulbs is NOT a viable solution to power line noise.

Better Central Control Support - Currently only ELK offers a "native" non-PC, non-X10, control of Insteon (as far as I know?). And that interface is currently buggy requiring long delays between commands, etc.

Accidental Reprogramming - It would be nice if the "10 second hold" feature could be disabled, or a paperclip "set" switch be used instead, for set up of the wall devices (or a button hidden under the paddle)?

True Multi-Way Switch Support - Perhaps they could offer the current devices and devices designed for hardwired slave switches?

It seems to me, SH is pushing Insteon mostly towards the DIY small scale retrofit market rather than towards the whole house automation market where UPB and the others are aimed? Is that why you believe that UPB and Z-Wave will dominate?

 

[upstatemike]

Thanks Upstatemike for the comments. I didn't realize Powerhome can handle ALL the linking? Are you saying you don't have to do the 10 second hold routine at all? If not, I'm assuming you need to know the 24 bit device ID's instead?

That's right. Just make a note of the 6 character Insteon address before you put the cover plate on and you never have to touch the switch to link it. If you forget to write the address down you can put PowerHome in "autodiscover mode" and press the paddle for 10 seconds and PowerHome will read the address and add it to the database.

 

[ginnytr]

Well, I have ruled out UPB due to buzzing. My husband and son have bionic ears and this project would not have a good HAF if he heard a buzz every time a light went on.

I was thinking that Insteon would be a future option for anything we added later that wasn't hard-wired. But I'm sure the non-child proof programming would be a problem at some point. It's still likely I will use some depending on reliability issues. Lights going on/off unpredictably would also be bad for the HAF and a good way to get my funds cut off .

I am hoping that there is a hardwired product that I can phase in the switches as we add automation gradually. Would like to pre-wire switches with cat5e for future use.

It seems like all the hardwired products use homerun electrical to fixture and low-volt to switch (is this right?). So that means I've got to install all of the wiring and automated switches now while under construction. It's a large house and will probably have ballpark of 55-75 switches I'm guessing (~6000 sft incl. basement and unfinished mechanical & storage rooms). We are stretching to build our dream house now due to recent relocation since the way things are going we will probably be priced out of the neighborhood if we wait 5 years. We've had a difficult time getting the builder to downsize the size of the house to a more reasonable level as it is. Thus the reason for not wanting to spend the big bucks on HA all at once. Can't wait 'til it is really our house and the builder has no say in what we do, though the walls will be sealed at that point.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

ginnytr;

I understand your situation as I'm helping my friend build his house and funds are limited as to the amount of HA and Theater Stuff he can purchase right now.

We did a LOT of prewiring and JLehnert wrote up a suggested prewire guide that is here on CocoonTech also.

It sounds like you are leaning towards installing a hard wired system, which is the best for reliability, but more expensive than the other power line protocal systems.

I'm not sure if you truely need all the cat5e to the switches home runned back to the wiring closet. I only glanced at some model of these switches but don't they have two RJ-45 connectors on the back for daisy chain purposes?

Again, I have no idea as my friend ruled this system out when he saw the cost. I would send a PM to dwayne of RedRadio because I know he has some knowledge of hard wired systems and could maybe point you in the right direction (he is a very nice guy and you can tell him I sent you over to him ).

BTW, I haven't read all through this thread but one thing you will want to do is at least get your door and window security sensors in before the drywall is up! I did it both ways and can tell you that the two of us got all the sensors in his doors and windows wired up and tested back to the wiring closet in two hours, where when I did this in my home (after drywall was up, but prewired) it took many days (plus I am now very good at patching drywall, but that is another story).

Good luck and let us know your progress!

BSR