Distribute 5.1 surround sound from multiple sources

[sic0048]

Running mini coax to each tv location is expensive isn't it? Compared to cat 6 w balun for HDMI?

Actually no. A decent pair of HDMI baluns are going to run at least $100. A box of 1000' Coleman 99401 cable which is precision mini-coax cable and perfect for distributing HD signals is only about $200. So depending on how many TVs you are going to have and how long the runs are, it can be much cheaper to run the mini-coax. Of course you also have to factor in the connectors which can run about $15 per component run ($2.50 per connector x 6 connectors).

Regardless of the choice you make, I would always recommend running at least 2 extra cat5e (or cat6) cables to each TV location for future use with baluns.

Also, what are the possibilities of running digital coax audio? Many switchers can handle that signal vs the optical audio (which most can not handle).

 

[R33BOOT]

Ok thanks...

I think what I'm leaning towards is going the Component route, wiring all tv locations for Component + L/R audio w/ the mini-coax. Then at least 2 dedicated Cat6 for future HDMI over Cat6 distribution, and then 2 RG6QS for cable, and more Cat6 for internet, control, etc. I'll probably want to run additional Dual Cat6's as well to hookup 'local source' equipment as well, like a blu-ray player.

What are your guys thoughts on a fully Central Rack system distributing everything to TV's (all components, receivers, speaker wire etc going to central rack) vs doing a somewhat hybrid system (Central Rack for distributing shared video sources, cable tv, etc) and then have Local racks at each TV location so the receiver can be there w/ local sources and surround sound?

 

[drvnbysound]

The advantage of running CAT wire is the option of the various Baluns... you could do component, HDMI, etc. over various Baluns. However, if you run Coax cable for component, I dont think you have that flexibility to change your end connections - and certainly are not "future-proofed".... Particularly with the potential for the HDBaseT .... you would have to run new cabling to utilize it.

I personally wouldn't choose a solution now, simply because it's currently the cheaper solution. I would suggest to look at the total cost of owning the distributed system over the period of time you expect to use it (or be in that house, etc) and try to factor in potential upgrades without going overboard on the future-proofing part... like I think some have done with running fiber in their house.

 

[drvnbysound]

I will be doing much more of a hybrid system as I dont want ALL of my equipment centralized. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to have DVD/BluRay players centralized, as I dont want to have to go to the main rack to load a movie and play it in my living room. I'd much prefer a local player in each room for these type of things. However, I do want a centralized server (I am probably going with SageTV) for sharing ripped DVD's, music, etc.

 

[sic0048]

The advantage of running CAT wire is the option of the various Baluns... you could do component, HDMI, etc. over various Baluns. However, if you run Coax cable for component, I dont think you have that flexibility to change your end connections - and certainly are not "future-proofed".... Particularly with the potential for the HDBaseT .... you would have to run new cabling to utilize it.

I personally wouldn't choose a solution now, simply because it's currently the cheaper solution. I would suggest to look at the total cost of owning the distributed system over the period of time you expect to use it (or be in that house, etc) and try to factor in potential upgrades without going overboard on the future-proofing part... like I think some have done with running fiber in their house.

Well, the idea is to run cat cable regardless of what solution you decide to go with. Then the question becomes is it better to use HDMI baluns, or use component baluns, or run precision coaxial cable. Personally I think HDMI distribution is either a) not reliable yet or super expensive because the only people that seem to do it well is Crestron. That may change in the future, but that is where we are today.

Therefore I recommend using component video distribution. About the only integrators that would disagree are the Crestron guys because they have a usable HDMI system. Then the question becomes do you use Component Baluns or precision coaxal cable. The cable can certainly be cheaper than the baluns. The exception is if you are running only 1 run, or if you are running a very long distance. Then buying a balun makes more sense IMHO.

 

[R33BOOT]

I will be doing much more of a hybrid system as I dont want ALL of my equipment centralized. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason to have DVD/BluRay players centralized, as I dont want to have to go to the main rack to load a movie and play it in my living room. I'd much prefer a local player in each room for these type of things. However, I do want a centralized server (I am probably going with SageTV) for sharing ripped DVD's, music, etc.

I get you here... But in doing so would you have a receiver at each location as well, with 5.1 speakers connected to that? Or would you have all your receivers in the Central Rack?

I think my issue is I have to do a hybrid, the home is very modern and I don't want receivers at the main living space/great room, nor really the master bedroom. I'm working on some planning tonight and I'll post it up!

 

[R33BOOT]

The advantage of running CAT wire is the option of the various Baluns... you could do component, HDMI, etc. over various Baluns. However, if you run Coax cable for component, I dont think you have that flexibility to change your end connections - and certainly are not "future-proofed".... Particularly with the potential for the HDBaseT .... you would have to run new cabling to utilize it.

I personally wouldn't choose a solution now, simply because it's currently the cheaper solution. I would suggest to look at the total cost of owning the distributed system over the period of time you expect to use it (or be in that house, etc) and try to factor in potential upgrades without going overboard on the future-proofing part... like I think some have done with running fiber in their house.

Well, the idea is to run cat cable regardless of what solution you decide to go with. Then the question becomes is it better to use HDMI baluns, or use component baluns, or run precision coaxial cable. Personally I think HDMI distribution is either a) not reliable yet or super expensive because the only people that seem to do it well is Crestron. That may change in the future, but that is where we are today.

Therefore I recommend using component video distribution. About the only integrators that would disagree are the Crestron guys because they have a usable HDMI system. Then the question becomes do you use Component Baluns or precision coaxal cable. The cable can certainly be cheaper than the baluns. The exception is if you are running only 1 run, or if you are running a very long distance. Then buying a balun makes more sense IMHO.

Exactly I'd definately future-proof for HDMI over Cat6. I guess my question is something you brought up, running Component to each location or going the Balun route? Someone posted $200-$300 for 1000'ft of bulk Component cable, then I just have to get the caps. Doing that as opposed to Baluns, don't u think the bulk would be cheaper? I know HDMI Baluns, send & receive run like $200-400 a piece! What do Component Baluns cost? Cause if I'm using a Component Video Matrix Switch (Video Storm 4x4 or 8x6 probably) I'd have to have both the send and transceiver units.

So the question is straight bulk component cable cost vs. bulk cat6 w/ baluns? I guess I need to figuring out how much length of wiring I'm actually going to need...

 

[Ranger Digital]

In my opnion, blow off the cable completely. Run two cat 5 (use one now with component baluns and spare for future use when you upgrade to another balun that my require two). Run another cat5 as well back to central location for IP. At some point in the future TV's will all stream. 2 years, ten years, doesnt matter. Run it now. You will never go wrong running too many.

If you run cable (RG6) it will likely not be usable in the future. However there are baluns out there even for HDMI taht run on 5 cables. But why have all that expense? Thats TEN ends for each TV not to mention the pain of running 5 and installing the ends.

SnapAV has component baluns that run over one cat five. You can chose from digital audio or analog audio. They work. They are solid and they look great as well. They can be mounted in a gang, on the wall or in the rack. VERY flexible. The pricing is always right at well. Great company (no I dont work for them but we source everything we can thru them).

Sit in front of a 1080p pic and switch to 1080i. Most, I would say 95%, cannot tell the difference. Broadcast at this point are only 1080i anyways. 1080i vs 1080p would be there VERY LEAST of my concerns when making the decision.

Try to centralize as much as you can. I understand the concern of wanting a blu-ray/dvd local. However, its not that much of a pain to load a movie in another room. Consider a disc storage solution or a hard drive storage solution. Something to consider. I would never have anything more than a blu-ray/dvd local. (actually, wouldnt do that either, just a personal choice).

You will LOVE the Video Storm matrix switches. VERY easy to control, particularly RS-232. Great company with good support (at least for dealers). Make SURE you are future proofing yourself with enough inputs/outputs. Is four REALLY enough? No chance of adding anything in future. They do have an "upgrade" program to trade in later. No idea how good it is though, never used it.

ABSOLUTELY put your receivers in a rack at a central location. You will never have to touch them let alone see them. And, you can easily protect them if central (surge, damage, wondering fingers, etc.)

Fun Stuff huh?

 

[drvnbysound]

Try to centralize as much as you can. I understand the concern of wanting a blu-ray/dvd local. However, its not that much of a pain to load a movie in another room.

That is assuming the viewing room is in close proximity to the centralized location. Do you really want one of the kids (and I dont mean a 5 year old) to have to go down to a central room (e.g. basement) to load a DVD?

Every setup is different, so don't know that centralization of everything is the best choice for every application.

Personally, when I grab my Netflix movie out of my mail box or come home from RedBox, I dont want to have to walk through my house to get to a media player in my utility room (which will double as my structured wiring / equipment rack area) to load a movie. I'd much rather walk through the door and directly into my living room and load the movie into my PS3, that resides there in the living room. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I thought that was the purpose of HA, structured wiring, media centers and all of the techie gadgets in the first place... to make everything easier.

Sit in front of a 1080p pic and switch to 1080i. Most, I would say 95%, cannot tell the difference. Broadcast at this point are only 1080i anyways. 1080i vs 1080p would be there VERY LEAST of my concerns when making the decision.

This is probably true. I've never tried it personally, but it may very well be the case for me as well. However, seeing as I have a Blu-Ray player and a 1080p TV, there is no way that I would want to pull component wiring knowing that I wouldn't be able to take full advantage of the technology I purchased.

 

[R33BOOT]

How much are the SnapAV Baluns?

 

[R33BOOT]

So basically I met with the Control 4 integrator yesterday again, for like the 3rd time, and he gave me a better picture after speaking with him and you guys on the thread to get a good solution.

To start he wants to use the Video Storm matrix switch w/ just straight component cable out to every TV location. He thinks this will be a cheaper solution than doing all cat5e w/ baluns. Here is what he was proposing for the a/v wiring for TV locations:

TV's w/ Surround + Local Source Options: 3 component + l/r, 5 Cat5e, 2 Cat6, and 2 RG6QS
* He said if we do it this way, there is the option later to do HDMI balun, use 1 of the Cat5e for IR, and also have a local source

TV's with TV speaker: 3 component + l/r, 3 Cat5e, 1 Cat6 and 2 RG6QS
* These are for TV's that might go in the kitchen or other areas where I'd just have a TV with no receiver and no local source, but with this setup he said we could do a local source and/or switch to HDMI balun later

Everything on the 1st level will be run by the Central Rack, so all the components will be there (receivers, shared sources, etc) then the future Theater Room is where the Central Rack will be, so everything will basically be local to that room. The 2 bedrooms upstairs that will be unoccupied with have a setup where to start it can be a Local Rack (its own reciever, sources), but he said we can wire it in a way, by looping some wires so that we could have the receiver int he central rack later and/or just have the shared sources as an input to the local reciever. He said what we can do with the wires is make them long enough and loop them in certain positions, so that way we can then go and and 'cut' them to run components from the Central Rack, pretty kewl.

He's cool, he actually agreed to do the wiring plan, equipment/cable list and documentation for me, at just his consulting fee. He said he normally won't do that but he understand that I'm on a budget, and his inital cost for them to do the PRE-WIRE just for materials was $4300!!! and I can get it all online for like $1000-1500 tops I believe. Buying all bulk cable.

Speaking of that, what brands, online sites do u recommend for getting cabling? I'm going to need bulk Cat 5e, Cat6, Mini-Coax, etc. I was thinking that I could get some of the combined cable (2 Cat5e, 2 RG6QS) as well as straight network cable where needed. The combined cable is more expensive tho.

Thanks for everything guys! I'm almost there!!! Actually you can follow my progress on completing my home I'm supposed to close on Wed at this blog:
http://436staffordstreet.tumblr.com/

 

[Esbelectric]

fwiw, i use a xantech 4x4 component matrix which outputs each zone to component and a cat 5 which is good up to 1000 feet. the cat 5 recievers are a little expensive but i have paid an average of about 110 on ebay for them, the transmitter is built into the video matrix. i picked up the matrix for 500 on ebay, and it also switches digital audio (spdif)

 

[R33BOOT]

Nice,
My integrator recommends the Video Storm products. I think the 4x4 one is $799 and can be expandable. I think what we are going to do is just run straight Component + L/R to the TV's I know I'm gonna have, and just the Cat5e to TV locations that I might put TV's later, then we can just use the Baluns like you said!

Right now I'd rather pay $30 for a nice 30ft Component cable rather than $200 plus for a Balun, that also uses more electricity.

 

[AnthonyZ]

One, for the record, component cable CAN support 1080p but, it isn't (and won't be) implemented. The only people who will say it can't are liars associated directly with HDMI. Bandwisth is not an issue. Second, HDMI is a major suck. Despite advances, HDCP and EDID still cause major problems, especially when run through a supposed HDMI matrix switch. With that said, HDMI is the only way to gain the new audio formats and two (sorry Tuck), the analog sunset is upon us. If you want to be reasonably "future proofed", cat5/6 and baluns is the way to go. However, that is an expensive solution. Good baluns (yes, quality does matter VERY much!) cost an arm and a leg.

Unfortunately, cabling is but one of the victims in Hollywood's war against us scumbag end users who, of course, are only out to get them...

 

[az1324]

r33, your installer wants to do component because HDMI is a major hassle, doesnt always work and actually cost a fortune more than component. Component works and its solid. That why he wants to use it. As an installer, I am putting component in my own home under construction plus TWO cat 4's to each tv location for future HDMI when we get to the day when component will not work, but thats YEARS down the road (as you buy new equipment that doesnt have component, but there will always be a work around there as well).

Just my two cents.

HDMI actually really really really really really SUCKS. You will see. Especially if you go the budget route. It will bite you in the end. Mark my words.

I put in a 4 source 3 zone HDMI distribution system for under $400 with 2 75' runs and 1 40' run. I have to run everything in PCM mode because one of my displays only supports that but I am not a big surround sound enthusiast and if I replace it with a newer display it would solve that problem. There were a few minor tweaks required such as adding $15 equalizers in some places but it has worked fine. Just make sure you choose your equipment consistently and carefully keeping in mind what you want the system to support.