Do LED Bulbs generate noise that might interfere with UPB?

[fcwilt]

Hi,
 
I have been gradually replacing incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs as the proper style become available.
 
But now the UPB controlled lights are no longer as reliable as they once were.
 
On my HA system I have a schedule that turns on lights at sunset, both inside and outside.
 
Now, for some reason, about half of the time, the outside lights are not coming on.
 
Activating the UPB link a second time is taking care of the problem for now.
 
Since the only change that I have identified has been that installation of the LED bulbs I was wondering if somehow they might be related to the problem.
 
Any thoughts?
 
Thanks!
 

 

[LarrylLix]

Oh yeah, and some are worse than others for noise. You may have a RF only sensitive switch inside a metal box with wiring right inside the box bringing in switching frequencies from the LED bulbs. If you have multiple sockets try mixing in one incandescent and see if the problem improves.
 
Try different brands of LED bulbs. Some are much better than others. The older and cheaper LED bulbs were a problem for many operating on only one medium of transmission, especially.

 

[pete_c]

Curious if you have looked at your UPB network with Upstart.  
 
Here I have configured a remote UPB PIM that I can move around just to look at signal levels of the OPII connected UPB PIM.
 
That said I do not or have not yet switched over to using LED lamps much yet. 
 
Well except for my landscaping lighting today now 100% LEDs (~ 12 zones / sections).
 
IE the kitchen incandescent lighting generates heat today.
 
From reading the variety of posts here I have seen more than 1 or 2 CT members here using UPB and LED lighting today and have not mentioned any noise related issues to date.
 
 
Geez googling LED AC noise a few minutes ago got this....
 
Many LED and fluorescent bulbs(generally cool white or full spectrum) are terrible for your eyes for multiple reasons anyway.  I only use them outside. In rooms that humans or animals spend time in, incandescents are usually best. No metamerism and no eye damage from the fact that LED bulbs are blue LEDs with a yellow scintillator phosphor. No headaches from PWM flicker.  Warm white LEDs arent as bad but they still have terrible color reproduction even if they have a high CRI. You need to find out their index and most consumer bulbs dont list that and probably arent even tested.  Ironic that governments are banning the one type of light bulb that doesnt damage your eyes while encouraging the use of eye damaging LEDs or mercury filled CFLs  The problems with LED bulbs are not caused by the amount of light they produce, or even the correlated color temperature.  6500K bulbs are usually called daylight, and the standard white point is 6500K(D65), however direct sunlight is actually 5500K at sea level. Overcast sunlights CCT is 6500K. The spectrum of the sun is also mostly red to green light which is why it appears yellow to us. Also, AC LEDs have a 60Hz flicker. Just wave your hand back and forth when lit by one and youll see the strobing. Like the PWM flicker of cheap LED backlit monitors, it can give you headaches even if you don't get migraines.  Fluorescent and LED bulbs have been known to cause issues for years but they are marketed as being so efficient that people seldom hear any negatives. Theyre great for illuminating places you dont spend time in or as security lights lol.
 
A bit of a tanget here yesterday I found new dimmable LED clear lamps that are Edison lamp reproductions which I really like. 
 

 
Mostly here many lamps use clear style bulbs (always preferred these for whatever reason).  (outside coach, table lamps, bathrooms, et al).

 

[fcwilt]

No I haven't check with UpStart.
 
I started here thinking it might be a well known problem.
 
Thanks for the information about the possible problems with LEDs. 
 
We've installed a lot and I haven't noticed any "health" issues so far but I will not keep an eye out for them.

 

[RAL]

I've run into some cheap LED bulbs that generated huge amounts of power line noise, completely disabling all of my X10 stuff throughout the house.  Haven't had any problems with Cree and Philips LEDs.

 

[mikefamig]

I have nine led bulbs of different sizes with UPB and no problems here. They are all Cree bulbs.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Tangent alert...anyone else find certain LED tail lights truly bothersome? Some tail lights strobe - specifically Cadillac, Nissan Leaf. I cannot drive behind them.

I nixed Edison bulbs in our kitchen remodel last year because I wanted LEDs, and I really dislike seeing light bulbs (too glaring - finding a good fan light kit is next to impossible, too). I appreciate the design aspect, but function is just as important to me.

 

[fcwilt]

Tangent alert...anyone else find certain LED tail lights truly bothersome? Some tail lights strobe - specifically Cadillac, Nissan Leaf. I cannot drive behind them.

I nixed Edison bulbs in our kitchen remodel last year because I wanted LEDs, and I really dislike seeing light bulbs (too glaring - finding a good fan light kit is next to impossible, too). I appreciate the design aspect, but function is just as important to me.

 
Wonderfully off topic!  :rofl:
 
JOCC have you seen the LED versions of "Edision" bulbs?
 
Based on my wife the WAF is very high.

 

[pete_c]

Yup here use clear bulbs for all of the ceiling fans (some open and some with covers the lamps), table lamps, bathroom over the sink lighting, outdoor coach lamps, chandeliers,  et al ....
 
Like the legacy lighting technologies, however, most LED lights are directly connected to the AC mains that operates at 50 or 60 Hz in different global regions. Even after rectification to frequencies of 100 or 120 Hz, any line-associated flicker may be detectable by the human eye due to the relatively low frequencies involved. Indeed, the rectified line may lead to strobe flicker, which can cause the previously mentioned distress in humans.
 
In particular, LED driver designs that rely on a single-stage architecture to handle both power factor correction (PFC) and output drive current are especially susceptible to flicker. Among other causes, flicker is affected by the LED ripple current. But there are numerous methods to eliminate the problem including a ripple suppressor circuit. SSL product developers need to evaluate the approaches and choose a driver that meets the application requirements in cost and performance. Different levels of flicker are acceptable in different applications. A system design that is unacceptable in indoor applications due to flicker may perform fine in an outdoor street or area lighting role.
 
photosensitive epileptic seizures
 
About one in 4000 individuals has photosensitive epilepsy. Repetitive flashing lights may induce seizures in these individuals. The flash frequency of concern is from 5 Hz to 70 Hz, with most individuals only susceptible in the range of 15 Hz to 20 Hz.
 
It should be noted that it is not the "strobe" that is the problem. Any light flashing at the noted frequencies may be a problem. In fact, flashing television images are the best known source of concern.
 
A  considerable body of knowledge exists relative to strobes and photosensitive epilepsy. Standards exist regarding the use of strobes in signaling applications such as for fire alarms. For example, the NFPA and ADA codes seek to insure that fire alarm strobes do not blink faster than twice per second so that a person between two adjacent strobes which happen to be synchronized and alternating will not experience a combined blink rate faster than four flashes per second (4 Hz).
 
 
@Frederick....let us know what you see with Upstart?

 

[TurboSam]

To bet back on topic for a minute....
 
I noticed a week or so ago in Upstart that I too had significant power line noise in a UPB configuration that used to be very stable.  And we had put in a lot of LEDs subsequent to the time I had last checked Upstart (when it was stable).
 
So this is probably a dumb question, but is it sufficient to test various bulbs by turning off the light switch that controls them (or could they somehow cause noise even when off)?  Or do I need to remove each bulb in a circuit to test?
 
Also, any thoughts on whether it an incremental problem (the more LEDs, the more noise) or just a defective/poor designed bulb or bulbs?  I have a variety of brand throughout the house (Cree, Feit, etc).
 
Thanks

 

[RAL]

Also, any thoughts on whether it an incremental problem (the more LEDs, the more noise) or just a defective/poor designed bulb or bulbs?  I have a variety of brand throughout the house (Cree, Feit, etc).

 
Noise is usually due to poor design of the LED power circuitry.  Often, the poor design is a result of efforts to cut costs by eliminating the components that filter out any noise.
 
A good LED bulb generates no noise.  Some lower quality bulbs generate a little noise and others generate a lot.  And noise can be additive, so a couple of bulbs that generate a little noise might not be a problem, but as you add more, suddenly you will have trouble.

 

[kwilcox]

I have a 60W candelabra LED bulb (Chinese origin) in a picture light controlled by a SAI UML-20.  At full brightness, the UML doesn't respond reliably to UPB commands; I had to dim it to about 60% to restore reliability.  I've also not had issues with Philips or Cree bulbs.

 

[fcwilt]

The closest store to us is Lowes and they don't sell Cree or Philips. 
 
Does anyone know if the sell a brand that is similar in quality to Cree or Philips?

 

[LarrylLix]

I have had some bad luck with Utilitech bulbs. Some very poor quality.
 
The Borg (Home Depot) sells Philips and Cree. Cree are usually good quality for the first few months.
 
I believe all bulbs are Chinese or using Chinese (Cree) LEDs in them. Cree invented the white LED.

 

[zenix]

Does anyone know if the sell a brand that is similar in quality to Cree or Philips?

 
Why would you settle for Cree? Regardless, the easiest thing to do is get one of each, test it, and return those which aren't good enough.