Do LED Bulbs generate noise that might interfere with UPB?

[zenix]

I have avoided all Philips bulbs (except Hue = mistake) after outfitting my new home with huge quantities of Philip CFLs demonstrating their poor quality attitude. I am not sure if any have survived 5 years.

 
Good to know about Philips quality. Can you clarify, why Hue was a mistake? It seems nice enough (if not bright enough), so despite obvious shortcomings of it being a "smart" bulb (any connected bulb is a mistake, in my opinion), I don't see any major faults with it.

 

[LarrylLix]

Good to know about Philips quality. Can you clarify, why Hue was a mistake? It seems nice enough (if not bright enough), so despite obvious shortcomings of it being a "smart" bulb (any connected bulb is a mistake, in my opinion), I don't see any major faults with it.

I wouldn't say their quality was always that way, especially since I have very little experience with Philips LED bulbs. They were always way overpriced here compared to other brands, like Cree.
 
Hue bulbs are, again, way overpriced at $60 per bulb. MilIght bulbs run about $16-$20
 
At this point in time they can do pastel colours where white and RGB can be mixed  White colour temperatures can be simulated. MiLight cannot mix W and RGB due to controller or software?? Strip can do it with individual conductors.
 
Hue bulbs do not have the white power brightness, MiLight bulbs are 9W and can light up a room like a 120 W incandescent.
 
Hue bulbs cannot produce all the colours. Best green is like a cheap old fluorescent light colour and blue cannot be produced unless you call Indigo = blue.  Reds and oranges are rich. MiLight bulbs and strips produce every colour with amazing deep colour richness. The RGB does not have the power the white LED does.
 
Hue bulbs are beginning to become secretive about their API. When you apply for one they ignore you and the for doesn't function. It was open to the public, previously. MiLight has all API mode open too the public but takes a 100msec gap in data packets that baffles many developers.
 
Both take a custom hub/bridge to control. Philips is only wired Ethernet. MiLights are WiFi to 2.4GHz proprietary protocol.
 
Neither have any status feedback to their controllers.
 
Both use power cycling as a work-around to use with a regular hardware switch. This results in all light being on after power failure recovery. Intelligent HA needs to turn them off in the middle of the night after a power blink.
.

 

[ChrisCicc]

If you're trashing Hue, you don't appreciate the features it provides. That's okay, there are plenty of options that are cheaper with fewer options.
 
I say this after having a couple of Hue bulbs die myself, but Philips was willing to exchange them. They did have some quality/reliability issues with their blue LEDs it seems. 
 
It's really simple for me, with Hue I can do this, without it I cannot: 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmNGt4tND64
 
And I LOVE the white color temperature features. It's the only bulb on the market that can do that!

 

[tmbrown97]

Wow - so many strong feelings - I know I should just quietly walk away but for some reason I'm not...
 

Tangent alert...anyone else find certain LED tail lights truly bothersome? Some tail lights strobe - specifically Cadillac, Nissan Leaf. I cannot drive behind them.

Either Toyota or Honda had one - although I'm thinking it was a highlander - so bad I refused to drive behind them because they truly hurt my eyes... haven't seen any issues in the last couple years though.
 

Why would you settle for Cree? Regardless, the easiest thing to do is get one of each, test it, and return those which aren't good enough.

"Settle"?  Cree is a pretty well made bulb that's actually affordable - and some of their bulbs have the best CRI available - and for their price points there's just no comparison.  They are priced similar to cheap no-name chinese junk and yet the bulbs are pretty consistent and quite nice.  I've tested a lot of brands and Cree has been the best as far as dimming curve, color reproduction, and overall color/quality.  What makes you feel that using Cree is "Settling"?
 

hat is weird. I tested every bulb local stores had - clamshell packaging be damned - as well as ordered a few online - there are online stores which welcome test & returns - and settled on a bulbs I like most. I mean, why would you spend good money on a few dozen bulbs and then find out it does not work bad? It's better to test them out first.

Never had an issue returning to Costco, Lowes, or Home Depot - like I said above, I've tested a LOT of bulbs.  I live in a city with about the most expensive electricity in the country so this is important to me.
 

UPStart can tell you if a UPB device is "repeater enabled" because UPStart can't "see" it otherwise.

Doesn't seem 100% accurate...  there are plenty of cases where Upstart sees switches on both phases without any phase couplers or repeaters.  Not all installs require anything like that - my last house didn't despite pool pumps and all electric homes with all electric appliances.
 

So if you want to be safe, just don't use Simply Automated things, and you won't have any problems. Some of their stuff MIGHT work also, but it will take trial-and-error.

"MIGHT" work? SA is quite common among CT and works just fine for a lot of installs.  They saw the problems and addressed them on their own without going back and paying more licensing feed for "Gen 2" and "Gen 3" while solving many of those issues.  And really I can promise there isn't another UPB company out there that even compares when it comes to their support - it's probably the best I've seen.  I think their faceplates look cheap and leave plenty of room for improvement - especially with that whole "print on paper and put in the insert" - that's just hokey right there... but as far as actual function goes, their products are extremely reliable, functional, and flexible - and yet for a fraction of the cost of something like PCS.
 

If a switch doesn't "support" a repeater, you don't have to replace it, just realize to program it with UPStart, it will need to be on the same phase as the ZIM, otherwise it should work O.K. but you won't receive status back if your PIM and switch are on opposite phases. But you CAN control it on the opposite phase.

Same as above - that's only true in some cases... in a lot of cases phase couplers and repeaters are completely not needed.  It must be quite the story of what made you have such strong feelings on the topic.
 

At this point in time they can do pastel colours where white and RGB can be mixed  White colour temperatures can be simulated. MiLight cannot mix W and RGB due to controller or software?? Strip can do it with individual conductors.
 
Hue bulbs do not have the white power brightness, MiLight bulbs are 9W and can light up a room like a 120 W incandescent.
 
Hue bulbs cannot produce all the colours. Best green is like a cheap old fluorescent light colour and blue cannot be produced unless you call Indigo = blue.  Reds and oranges are rich. MiLight bulbs and strips produce every colour with amazing deep colour richness. The RGB does not have the power the white LED does.

Both use power cycling as a work-around to use with a regular hardware switch. This results in all light being on after power failure recovery. Intelligent HA needs to turn them off in the middle of the night after a power blink.

I have found no issues with the colors - although the app can make it hard to access certain corners.  I haven't found much it can't do, and with 3rd party apps I've seen some pretty cool functionality... there are some apps that will let you know when your favorite team scores; or do a fireworks show with multiple bulbs simultaneously creating a nice effect; etc.  I don't think their app gives the bulbs the justice they deserve.
 
The color temperature is one of my favorite things - from bright white for visibility to basically the effect of a candle-light dinner, flickering and all.  You absolutely can dim the bulbs while on white settings, although I'd like to go much dimmer - it seems like you get to about 20% and that's it, at least with their app.
 
I think the price of the Hue bulbs is obscene and yet one day when I felt like wasting money, I bought the starter pack and put one bulb in each kid's room in their table/night lamps.  I have standard scenes that drop light levels but from time to time they'll get on kicks where they want green or white and bright or dim... They've been fun.  Also over-priced, there's a disney version of the bulb which interacts with their ipads when reading bedtime stories that changes the color of the room with a wallwasher as you go page by page - as wasteful and stupid as it is, I'll probably get one before long just because it'll excite them and it's fun.

 

[LarrylLix]

I have found no issues with the colors - although the app can make it hard to access certain corners. I haven't found much it can't do, and with 3rd party apps I've seen some pretty cool functionality... there are some apps that will let you know when your favorite team scores; or do a fireworks show with multiple bulbs simultaneously creating a nice effect; etc. I don't think their app gives the bulbs the justice they deserve.

The color temperature is one of my favorite things - from bright white for visibility to basically the effect of a candle-light dinner, flickering and all. You absolutely can dim the bulbs while on white settings, although I'd like to go much dimmer - it seems like you get to about 20% and that's it, at least with their app.

I think the price of the Hue bulbs is obscene and yet one day when I felt like wasting money, I bought the starter pack and put one bulb in each kid's room in their table/night lamps. I have standard scenes that drop light levels but from time to time they'll get on kicks where they want green or white and bright or dim... They've been fun. Also over-priced, there's a disney version of the bulb which interacts with their ipads when reading bedtime stories that changes the color of the room with a wallwasher as you go page by page - as wasteful and stupid as it is, I'll probably get one before long just because it'll excite them and it's fun.


My main issue with the colours was creating a Christmas theme with red and green. The Hue bulbs cannot do it. The green needed is not on the Philips published hue chart and of neither of the two styles of Hues can do it. There are no codes to do it. Looking closely at the chart there is a very weak band of actual blue colour. Using the codes given and tweaking them to perfection the bulbs cannot do blue to any level near 1/4 of the other colours. I suspect this is due to the Indigo/purple LED they used. It is very hard to mix this with any other color to achieve a "true blue". Once people see the colour range of other bulb/strip systems they realise Hue RGB colours are a few hues short of a spectrum.  I was going to install three of the flood style bulbs on my porch but the Christmas theme usage wasn't possible.
 
However, the white colour temperatures that Hue  initiated are an awesome idea. Except as a general lighting bulb the output is slightly too low. A bedroom usage is probably a great idea where the natural time of day colour can be duplicated to induce serotonin release. I haven't been able to achieve flickering. I was not aware this was an intentional effect. More experimentation needed, now. The MiLight bulbs have some colour flashing sequences built into the bulbs. Novel but basically useless after 5 minutes of wow.
 
I have tried most of the apps with the lightning and fireworks. Very novel for about 10 minutes  but they don't have a real usage in home lighting except for demo purposes, wowing the guests.
 
The Disney thing sounds cool. It does sound like an iApp and not the bulbs, though. I'll be watching for that one. Wife has an iPad and we have a few grandchildren.

 

[ano]

Doesn't seem 100% accurate...  there are plenty of cases where Upstart sees switches on both phases without any phase couplers or repeaters.  Not all installs require anything like that - my last house didn't despite pool pumps and all electric homes with all electric appliances.

Surprisingly it IS 100% true. Obviously this only applies to homes where UPB signals DON'T travel from one phase to the other.  If your house doesn't fit that case, then obviously you DON'T need a repeater or a coupler, for that matter. Consider yourself lucky and move on. Unforyunately neither of the last two homes I have lived in fits this case. 
 

"MIGHT" work? SA is quite common among CT and works just fine for a lot of installs.  They saw the problems and addressed them on their own without going back and paying more licensing feed for "Gen 2" and "Gen 3" while solving many of those issues.  And really I can promise there isn't another UPB company out there that even compares when it comes to their support - it's probably the best I've seen.  I think their faceplates look cheap and leave plenty of room for improvement - especially with that whole "print on paper and put in the insert" - that's just hokey right there... but as far as actual function goes, their products are extremely reliable, functional, and flexible - and yet for a fraction of the cost of something like PCS.

 
What in the world did I say that has ANYTHING to do with Simply Automated support, or anything like that?  I had a home full of Simply Automated switches in my last house, and they worked fine until I got a repeater.  I said "MIGHT WORK" because myself don't have firsthand experience with all Simply Automated switches and repeaters. As I stated some switches DON'T work with a repeater, even current models. Again, my mention of Simply Automated has NOTHING to do with their support, the price of their switches, if they are reliable, their features, or if their faceplates look cheap or not.  I will try to be even more concise in my writing in the future to avoid any confusion. If you have a different experince of Simply Automated switches working with a split-phase repeaters, please share.

 

[pete_c]

Here my home new UPB stuff is all SA. 
 
I have an HAI repeater and a PCS coupler (off now).  One HAI PIM connected to one phase and to the OPII panel.  I have a second HAI PIM connected to Homeseer 3 and an SA USB PIM connected to a wintel server only utilized for Upstart. 
 
These are all adjacent to the fuse panel on their own breakers.  4th PIM is on the second floor connected to another circuit and a serial to network box. 
 
I am wondering now if the extra UPB PIMs do anything to my UPB network as I have no issues with my newer SA multiload / multitoggle UPB switches today using the HAI repeater.  I also utilize another HAI UPB Pim as a floater for laptop / room UPB Installation.  I do test the signals via the floater and the lan based UPB PIM sometimes.

 

[ChrisCicc]

"Settle"?  Cree is a pretty well made bulb that's actually affordable - and some of their bulbs have the best CRI available - and for their price points there's just no comparison.  They are priced similar to cheap no-name chinese junk and yet the bulbs are pretty consistent and quite nice.  I've tested a lot of brands and Cree has been the best as far as dimming curve, color reproduction, and overall color/quality.  What makes you feel that using Cree is "Settling"?

 
The two biggest, and best, LED manufacturers in the world are Philips and Cree. Each has their respective strength - Philips is leading at multicolored LEDs and white light reproduction, CREE is leading at having the highest lumens/watts ratio, while lowering cost. If all you do is review their products at Home Depot, you really don't understand what these companies really do.

Philips, for instance, installs all the colored architectural lighting you see. Skyscraper in your city changing colors at night? That's Philips Color Kinetics.
 
Special forces soldiers raiding Pakistan to kill Bin Laden? They're carrying CREE LEDs for their rifle dazzlers and night vision. 
 
What trickles down to the consumer level is the stuff that isn't good enough for their main business lines. 

 

[ano]

Here my home new UPB stuff is all SA. 
 
I have an HAI repeater and a PCS coupler (off now).  One HAI PIM connected to one phase and to the OPII panel.  I have a second HAI PIM connected to Homeseer 3 and an SA USB PIM connected to a wintel server only utilized for Upstart.

You should NEVER use a repeater AND a coupler at the same time. One or the other. But do you need either?  The only true way to test if a Simply Automated switch (or any switch) supports a repeater is to do this. 
 
1) Put the PIM and Switch on OPPOSITE phases.
2) Shut OFF all repeaters and couplers
3) Try to program the switch with UPStart
4) If you CAN program the switch, your signal is getting through WITHOUT a repeater.
5) If you couldn't program the switch, due to low signal or high noise, turn ON the repeater.
6) If you CAN now program the switch, the switch supports the repeater. If you still can't program it, it doesn't support the repeater.
 
That is the only true test.  All switches can use a repeater in the FORWARD direction from the PIM to switch. Its the REVERSE direction that some switches don't support. This reverse direction must work for UPStart to program a switch.
 
You HAVE to have either a low signal or a high noise condition that is preventing the signal getting across the phases to test if a switch suports a repeater. The fact that UPStart can program a switch on the opposite phase does not prove the switch supports a repeater UNLESS this couldn't be don't when the repeater was turned off. 
 
In my last house, I had 50+ Simply Automated switches and repeater which helped the FORWARD signal to the switches, yet none of these switches supported a repeater. It was only when programming the switches on the opposite phase you see the problem. 

 

[pete_c]

You should NEVER use a repeater AND a coupler at the same time.

 
Yup here just left the PCS phase coupler in place to its own breakers and they have been off since the repeater was installed. 
 
I have tested shutting off the repeater and turning on the phase coupler or leaving them off or both on a few times over the last few years.  There are differences.
 
I can do a test as you have mentioned above and add the phase coupler to the test to see the results of the newer UPB switches.
 
I can see what phase the PIM is on (well it is labeled) and the switch is on. 
 
Will build a little spreadsheet of results / switch models.  (I am bored lately).

 

[zenix]

My main issue with the colours was creating a Christmas theme with red and green. The Hue bulbs cannot do it. The green needed is not on the Philips published hue chart and of neither of the two styles of Hues can do it.

 
Are you talking about A19 bulbs, or one of those living color lights? According to philips documentation, A19/BR30/GU10 bulbs have very limited color reproduction, especially in blue-green range. Once you up to living colors/bloom/iris, you get much wider gamut. See -
 
http://www.developers.meethue.com/sites/default/files/gamut_0.png

 

[LarrylLix]

Are you talking about A19 bulbs, or one of those living color lights? According to philips documentation, A19/BR30/GU10 bulbs have very limited color reproduction, especially in blue-green range. Once you up to living colors/bloom/iris, you get much wider gamut. See -



http://www.developer...les/gamut_0.png


I have three of the BR30 bulbs and one A series 8.5 Watt units. They adhere to that chart almost perfectly.  I did a lot of experimentation using that chart and tried to fudge the setting every way including reducing brightness, saturation.
 
Looking at the chart you should notice no deep green or deep blue included on it. Deep green just isn't there. An almost  true blue colour is shown on the chart  but when the bulbs do it turns out to be about 1 watt worth of light. If you desire to redefine those colours the produce all colours but MiLights and Hue strips (so I am told) produce more. I can put them side by side and there is no comparison when it comes to those two colours.
 
Hue does produce a beautiful deep and bright indigo  as it's one primary LED appears to be, but so does the other brand. It would seem Hue didn't use primary additive colour LEDS and maybe didn't understand the difference between additive and subtractive primary colours when they designed it.
 
I watched the Hue demos at Best Buy (now gone in Canada) and Future Shop as they flash through demo colours and see the same lack of  green and the blue is almost violet. Obviously not RGBW  LEDs inside but rather they catered to the white temperatures and tried to use only three LEDs sacrificing full spectrum production  at balanced output levels.
 
I thought to try the Bloom bulbs but the increase in price point was past my limit and for a 120 lumen bulb??? A couple of Christmas bulbs put out more light.  I don't trust Philips anymore. At $80 per bulb these days  they are gouging the market way too much. Let them fall on their faces.
 
If you google some of the testing of the Hue bulbs people have found their output drops dramatically when they get around to the green colours further proving even their colour chart is a stretch.

 

[jkmonroe]

I love my Hue bulbs.  I ripped out Z-Wave and went all-in with Hue and the Hue Taps in place of switches.
 
Some of the color reproduction sucks, but in my home the colors come on after dark almost every late night.  That said, I love the tunable white for everything else so much that I don't care about the rest.  If the Lux bulb at $20 offered tunable white, I would go with those instead ...
 
But we're rocking some pink, red, and blue right now.  
 

 

[LarrylLix]

IIRC I saw a tunable white only bulb at Lowes from GE?? a few months back.

 

[jkmonroe]

Don't I wish.  GE has bulbs that work with the Hue bridge, but unfortunately they aren't tunable. 
 
The only one's I know are Osram and LIFX, and Osram apparently follows the HA profile and not LL, so they won't work with the Hue bridge.  LIFX is obviously a non starter at $more-than-hue so I haven't bothered to research them.