Dump Insteon and go with z-wave??

So I just read through the manual for Intermatic's decora style z-wave switch. There are no instructions for linking to other devices and specifies the switch is for 2-way use only. I'm assuming that they just don't cover the z-wave portion of what you can do but I could be wrong.
 
Smarthome has taken a great idea and executed poorly.
This seems to be a repeating problem with SH. The old timers (been in HA longer than 6 years :D ) should remember when SH put out their first high-end X10 switch. At that time it had for then revolutionary features like LEDs on the side, programmable ramp rates, easy scene programability, and no code wheels. Feature wise, it blew the doors off of PCS and Leviton.

The only problem was implimentation. Poor QC, a continual set of bugs in the ROM, and denial on the part of the company. They burned a lot of bridges with the pro installer crowd. In a nutshell, Smarthome had a great idea and executed it poorly.

Now that I'm starting to upgrade my own house, and possibly getting back into the business part-time, I'm trying to keep an open mind. None of the three new technologies (UPB, Zwave, Insteon) seem to be trouble free. I'm probably going to have to buy a sample of each, and install them in the lab (aka my house). Then let the games begin. :)
 
sorka said:
Smarthome has taken a great idea and executed poorly. I just can't believe all of the spring failures people are reporting. This is going to happen to all of my switches?
Spring failures are easy to deal with. In fact, if I only had spring issues, I would not be looking elsewhere. It is replacing the entire switch in multi-gang boxes that is a PITA.

There are some things you can do with Insteon that I don't know if I will be able to do with Z-wave. For example, in the MBR, the main switch is also linked to the switches in the Master Bath. But the Master Bath switches are not linked to the main switch in the MBR. So you can control the Bath switches separately, but when you leave the MBR, one press of the main switch turns off all the lights in the MBR/Bath.

It looks like some of the Leviton switches are coming available, so I am going to install a few of them and give it a try. I need a few Z-wave devices in the house anyway to help with signal issues with my Sirius Conductor.
 
I did just realize a cost advantage with z-wave. Many of my switches, most of them in fact, are 3 way. Some are 4 way. Although insteon is nice in that it's easy to setup n-way virtual switches without travelers, if I'm willing use the travelers in my existing 3 and 4 ways, the cost of the hompro companion switches from homeseer is only $10 or so after the 10% discount. A 4 way then would cost $51 + $10 + $10 +$10 (assuming the volume discount) == $81. To do that with ICON would cost $120(that that they've raied their price). To keep the ramp rates, you'd have to have the load switch be INSTEON so that's $130 total. So $50 cheaper to go with z-wave. I think this is turning out to be a no brainer.

The manual I read for the intermatic switch, btw, was for a first gen reciever only switch.

Still would love to read about how you use a z-wave master controller to cross link multiple transceiver decora switches into virtual n-way.

Also, Rich at Homseer said there's a new low cost no-load z-wave switch coming out that will reduce the cost of making n-way virtual switches.

Has anyone heard about this?
 
Man that's awesome. How do you know it's him and not someone else?

I have this plastic box marked "PACKAGES" that the UPS/FedEx guys have been trained to use, so when they open that, I know its a package.
 
Herdfan said:
There are some things you can do with Insteon that I don't know if I will be able to do with Z-wave. For example, in the MBR, the main switch is also linked to the switches in the Master Bath. But the Master Bath switches are not linked to the main switch in the MBR. So you can control the Bath switches separately, but when you leave the MBR, one press of the main switch turns off all the lights in the MBR/Bath.
Herdfan:

You can do that with virtual 3-way in Z-Wave, making the "3-way" operate just one way...

Chris
 
This seems to be a repeating problem with SH. The old timers (been in HA longer than 6 years ) should remember when SH put out their first high-end X10 switch. At that time it had for then revolutionary features like LEDs on the side, programmable ramp rates, easy scene programability, and no code wheels. Feature wise, it blew the doors off of PCS and Leviton.

The only problem was implimentation. Poor QC, a continual set of bugs in the ROM, and denial on the part of the company. They burned a lot of bridges with the pro installer crowd. In a nutshell, Smarthome had a great idea and executed it poorly.

The denial hurts as much as the problems themselves in my opinion. There are some people in CS at SH that are pretty open and honest if you get them chatting. One or two times they talked me into giving it more time but its been a year and no improvements noticed yet they raised prices significantly. For $17 a switch you cant argue to much if you have failures and they replace them. But when they are now $35 and replacements are not as easy to get its not worth the hassle. And its a PIA to come home at night and find the lights not working and you have to replace the switch in the dark.

Insteon isnt dead... just bleeding and needs help.
 
I was thinking I might do a test install of something to start.

Can someone please reccomend a z-wave parts list for the following:

I'm installing 5 mono point pendant lights over the bar in the kitchen island. The lights won't physically be connected to any controlling switches. Each one will be connected to a load dimmer acting as a slave.

There will be one master switch which invokes a scene to either turn them all on or all off. Each one will have a different ramp rate.

Addiitonally, there will be 5 controlling switches mounted under the bar. One for each light.

The setup is such that you can turn any light on or off from the corresponding seating position of that light. You can also turn them all on or off from the one master switch on the wall.

The 6 controlling switches (the one that turns all on or all off and the 5 individual switches) will not be connected to any loads. They are controllers only.

If I were doing this with INSTEON, i'd use 5 inline dimmer modules(in the ceiling above each light all on the same physical power line). 5 ICON dimmers for the seated positions. One 8 button insteon keypad(decora faceplate). The remaining buttons will be mapped to other switches(I haven't seen any zwave switches like this yet).

If I were going to do this with z-wave, what would I use? Also, suggest a master controller that can be used to program them to do all of this without the need for a PC.

Thanks.
 
Whew... that is a LOT of feedback in a short period of time! :p

Must be a lot of Insteon interest / focus / frustration / users / whatever. :huh:

As I've said before (to the irritation of some, I suspect), I've had great success with the functionality of Insteon switches. I'm disgusted at the QC... but not enough to move to the other platforms after seeing what I can do with the lighted buttons on KeypadLincs (as mentioned above).

The lack of other Insteon products doesn't bother me because I'd rather be hard-wired on security and irrigation and such - and I'd prefer a larger selection for many other solutions. I don't necessarily want a "one size fits all" HA control protocol until it is a full IP stack in every device using standards-based LAN/WLAN communication.

Using the Elk allows me to use other RF controllers and they control Insteon equipment as fast as if it were an Insteon RF device (using the WGL RF800 and many different RF keypads and such). The Elk controls the irrigation, security, and motion activation and such.

To that "KeypadLinc" thing, it's that ability to do n-way connections between all the switches and keypads - including designer-based feedback (not just system created) - that I don't see in current UPB or Z-Wave devices. Feel free to correct me, of course.

What I'm talking about is the fact that the lower-right button on all KeypadLincs in the house (a dozen or so - at least one per room / area) control outside lights and indicate the status of those outside lights on all the other KeypadLincs. Similary, the "espresso" button indicates whether the espresso maker is on or not. If the light is on in any of the KeypadLincs, it's on in all of them.

It's a little thing that I didn't think much of before I implemented it, but it's really cool to have now that it's there.

$.02 'n' all...
<_<

... all that said, I'm more'n a little tired of replacing failed switches, fer gosh's sake. :)
 
ChrisWalker said:
You can do that with virtual 3-way in Z-Wave, making the "3-way" operate just one way...
Chris, can you expand on this?

I know the ACT switches support scene programming directly into the switch (using ACT's master remote), so no remote is necessary for executing a scen, but I don't believe Intermatic's current line of switches do. You can setup a scene using Intermatics with a remote but I don't see mention of virtual scenes in Intermatic's manual for the HA06.

Are all Z-Wave switches virtual 3-way programmable even if the manual doesn't mention it or is that a feature Intermatic didn't bother to implement?
 
Um, please someone do correct him *if* he's wrong. The ability to do n-way connections is a must for me to switch over. Not just n-way crosslinking but n-way bi-drectional and uni-directional as INSTEON does.

It was my understanding from my research today that fully compliant 2-way z-wave switches can do do this just as well as insteon.

Correct *me* if I'm wrong??
 
There are currently two ways to do 3-way and 4-way switching with z-wave. One is to use Transmitter switches to control the load switch. This is what I have been doing for a while now in my hall way and bathrooms. The other way is to use the actually 3-way switches. Currently I think ACT is the only manufacture who has these available. You need to have a load switch and a companion switch. Monster currently has a 3-way load switch but not the companion to make it all work.

Did I confuse you enough?
 
Herdfan said:
Thanks Chris.

I heard the Leviton switches are delayed until March 1st.  Can anyone confirm?
We *just* got the Leviton ViziaRF Z-Wave in-wall dimmers and relay switches today (1/19/07) and are shipping orders now. The new switches come with ivory, almond and white paddles and work with HomeSeer HS2, HSPRO and PRO-100 units. FYI

Mark
 
Micah said:
Chris, can you expand on this?

I know the ACT switches support scene programming directly into the switch (using ACT's master remote), so no remote is necessary for executing a scen, but I don't believe Intermatic's current line of switches do. You can setup a scene using Intermatics with a remote but I don't see mention of virtual scenes in Intermatic's manual for the HA06.

Are all Z-Wave switches virtual 3-way programmable even if the manual doesn't mention it or is that a feature Intermatic didn't bother to implement?
A key tenet of Z-Wave (just like Bluetooth) is that manufacturers can include or exclude various types of features to differentiate their products.

That HA06 switches do not support associations, so you can't use them on the "sending" side of a virtual 3-way. They could be on the "receiving' side however.

The new Intermatic HomeSettings 3-way switches do support 3-way, although I'm not sure if it's virtual or hardwired. Or both.

Chris
 
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