ELK and Extra Power Supply

[2blackbelt]

Hi everyone,

Newbie here trying to wire a Elk M1G with 16 Smokes along with approximately 60 zones, 4-5 Temp Sensors and a Elk WSV (Water Shutoff Valve). Because of the power requirements I am using a Elk P412 four amp power supply. The smokes are the System Sensor 4WTA-B. All smokes are homerunned into the panel. Using a RSSMOD and EOL Resistor so that I would know which smoke oView attachment 3626riginated the alarm while all smokes alarm. Since the Temps require a zone between 1-16, I was looking at purchasing two Elk M1XOVR for the smokes to wire into. Run into a brain fart and cannot figure this out. Any help would be appreciated. Attached is a chart showing the RSS Mod as if it were connect direct to the M1G using zones 1-16. Now that I'm using the additional power supply and possible M1XOVR, I need some help. Here is the link the diagram. I've also got a PD9HC (Power Distribution Module) and a P624 (Power Supply and battery charger).


Your help is appreciated.

 

[2blackbelt]

Added image to gallery of diagram of layout for the schematics.

 

[Monk]

2Blackbelt,
I do not have specific knowledge regarding smokes but I do have the elk p412. Currently I am just using it to cut down on some wall warts. Eventually i will use it for elk devices. Try using "elk p412" in the search engine. It will get 30+ hits. This could help lead you in the right direction.

 

[ahellard]

You could use a relay tied to the SAUX

SAUX + to one side of coil on relay
NEG - to one side of coil on relay

AUX + of auxillary power supply to the common on relay

NOTE: some relays are mark with Normally open being with no power applied.
the goal is to have the power going through the relay with the elk in a normal state to feed the smoke. you must use this to make sure the coil is being energised so the relay acts as self supervision.

RRS-MOD

Yellow NO of above relay
Orange NEG of AUX power supply
RED POS of AUX power supply
BLACK NEG of AUX power supply
Brown POS IN on DETECTOR
WHITE IN/OUT of DETECTOR
Purple SIREN OUT ELK PANEL

SMOKE

NO / C to what ever Zone you use on the ELK panel
Make sure you use a EOLR at your last smoke to supervise the power circuit.

AUX power
supply wire run a wire from the negative side to the negative side of the elk negative input

I dont know what you were doing with the MOXVR units you may need to explain further

HOPE this helps let me know if you need further

 

[mustangcoupe]

I dont know what you were doing with the MOXVR units you may need to explain further

HOPE this helps let me know if you need further

There has been some discussions in the chatroom with the OP... He'd like to monitor each smoke independently, which in his home size and his local code will require 16 smokes, and that along with monitoring temps and other stuff means he needs to move the smokes to a zone expander

and because of power consumption ect. he needs to use an external PS. now how much current do these draw in non alarm mode? can they be run off the SAUX output? or would he need to power them off the external PS, and add a second relay in the mix for resetting them? Also can he still monitor them independently and have them sound simultaneously? are some of the questions, he will check into this with System Sensor and post back here. so we can help him wire it all into his ELK

 

[DotNetDog]

OK, I definitely an Elk newbie and still learning...but I thought that the Elk M1XOVR is an "output" expander and smokes require an "input" expander. My understanding is that you can run the power from the input expanders to an auxillary power supply. In fact, I plan to use an Elk P212S power supply connected to an Elk PD9HC power distribution module. I have lots of occupancy sensors that will require auxillary power. I think this is similar to what the OP is doing with his smokes. Just remember to connect the negative back to the controller.

 

[ahellard]

OK, I definitely an Elk newbie and still learning...but I thought that the Elk M1XOVR is an "output" expander and smokes require an "input" expander. My understanding is that you can run the power from the input expanders to an auxillary power supply. In fact, I plan to use an Elk P212S power supply connected to an Elk PD9HC power distribution module. I have lots of occupancy sensors that will require auxillary power. I think this is similar to what the OP is doing with his smokes. Just remember to connect the negative back to the controller.

Thats kinda what i didn't under stand about using a output expander instead of a input expander

 

[mustangcoupe]

ahhh sorry guys... I didnt even look at the part number that was posted in this thread. But I think he posted the correct one in the chat the other day.

 

[2blackbelt]

Finally have time over the holidays to finish my wiring project. Attached is the schematic of the wiring diagram for 16 system sensor 4WTA-B smoke detectors to a separate power supply. Using the M1G. It is a large house and am wanting all smokes to alarm when one smoke activates. Also want the option of being able to see which smoke originated the alarm. I made the diagram and emailed a copy to Elk Systems. Here is their response.....

Attached is a sample diagram showing how to connect the RRS MOD to the ELK-M1 Gold using 4-Wire Smoke Detectors. I believe but have not tested whenever one sensor goes into alarm that is the only zone which will show in alarm. When the RRS MOD it tripped it simply reverses the voltage polarity to the 4-Wire Smoke Detectors causing them to start sounding but not actually go into alarm. You should still be able to determine which sensor went into alarm by the zone tripped and the RED LED ON the 4-Wire Smoke being latched on. I believe I understand what you’re trying to accomplish --- you’re using the P412 to Power the 4-Wire Smoke Detectors and the ELK-912B to drop power from the 4-Wire Smoke Detectors to reset incase they’ve been tripped --- correct? I would make sure to have a common DC Negative between the M1 Gold and the P412 Power supply. A common DC Negative is simply a single wire from DC NEGATIVE of the M1 (for example SAUX NEG and DC NEG on the P412.

In my gallery under my name is a file labeled RSS Mod. Please look at that file for the diagram there. I want to make sure I do not fry my system. Any help is appreciated.

 

[ahellard]

I think you are on the right track. I was confused by your drawing but it still may be correct. I have attached a drawing to show you what I am saying. Just remeber that you may have to play around with the relay as far as NO and NC goes.

Hope this helps

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[gatchel]

A power supervision relay is meant to be installed at the end of line with and end of line resistor when all smokes are daisy chained. (ELk to A, A to B, B to C, C with relay and EOL, etc)

Installing an EOL resistor without the power supervision relay defeats the whole point of having power the power supervised and I believe does not meet NFPA specs, I am not a fire guy so do not quote me.

If it were me, I would put an EOL resistor with a power supervision relay at the end of each run, Tie all the power wires together in the panel and run them to the RRS MOD. Then tie the other pair to the corresponding zone inputs.

I have 15 or 16 4wta-b detectors and they are all daisy chained together with one power supervision relay installed at the end of the run. If there is a fire I could really care less about exactly what zone it is and where it is at. I want everyone out! Then I'll worry about where the fire is which in a 2000 square foot home should take about 30 seconds or less, remember if there's smoke, there's fire.

I also recommend having the smokes sound for much much longer than 5 seconds.

ahellard,

If the OP has homerun 4 wire cables from the devices to the panel your diagram will not work as far as the detector power is concerned.

 

[2blackbelt]

A power supervision relay is meant to be installed at the end of line with and end of line resistor when all smokes are daisy chained. (ELk to A, A to B, B to C, C with relay and EOL, etc)

Installing an EOL resistor without the power supervision relay defeats the whole point of having power the power supervised and I believe does not meet NFPA specs, I am not a fire guy so do not quote me.

If it were me, I would put an EOL resistor with a power supervision relay at the end of each run, Tie all the power wires together in the panel and run them to the RRS MOD. Then tie the other pair to the corresponding zone inputs.

I have 15 or 16 4wta-b detectors and they are all daisy chained together with one power supervision relay installed at the end of the run. If there is a fire I could really care less about exactly what zone it is and where it is at. I want everyone out! Then I'll worry about where the fire is which in a 2000 square foot home should take about 30 seconds or less, remember if there's smoke, there's fire.

I also recommend having the smokes sound for much much longer than 5 seconds.

ahellard,

If the OP has homerun 4 wire cables from the devices to the panel your diagram will not work as far as the detector power is concerned.

All of my wires are home run to the automation room. So I wont be able to daisy chain the wiring.

 

[ahellard]

How many conductor wire did you run? The other option is to add a Power supervision relay to each smoke.

 

[2blackbelt]

How many conductor wire did you run? The other option is to add a Power supervision relay to each smoke.

I ran 4 wire firewire cable (Standard smoke wire) . I would add a EOL resistor at each smoke.

 

[gatchel]

You would need a power supervision relay AND an EOL resistor at each smoke detector. Otherwise you are not supervising the power to each smoke head. Very important if you want them to work.