ELK Expander Input/Output startup problem

[sandman]

Hi ALL

New poster here at Cocoontech so I'm hoping you will welcome me with open arms

I've got an ELK M1g with 4 input expanders and 1 output expander. I seem to have a PAINFULL issue that I'm hoping I can get some help with.

1) A number of the inputs on expander 4 are non-alarm (type 16 as I recall), normally open with push buttons attached.

2) Output expander 1 is out near the pool and it drives a bunch of relays that turn on the pool pump, spa, pergola lighting etc.

3) Rule in ELK.
When Input xxx goes secure
Toggle output yyy

This means that the push buttons toggle the relays on the expander board. This works fine.

ON SYSTEM POWERUP.........

5-10 seconds after turning the power switch on on the ELK-M1G, ALL of the outputs on the expander that have associated RULES, turn themselves on. I have deleted the rules and all works fine, on powerup, no relays turn on.

I suspect this is ONLY an issue when the input is an expander. I was going to turn on a dummy output for 2 mins on system powerup and then "AND" my toggle rule with the dummy output being off however I really would expect not to need this.

Does anyone have the same issue ? I was thinking of putting the resistor across the input and seal it, using the rule of "UNSECURE" to trip the rule however I havent gotten that far.

Any help would be appreciated...

Pete

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Probably will not matter, but do you have the EOL defeat box checked for your inputs?

 

[sandman]

Hi Sir RObbin

Had a quick look on the RP software for the input, I dont see that check box ? I've got them set to "type 16" and normally open. I've read through some of the other threads and note that when the ELK powers up, all of the inputs ( on expanders) are deemed "insecure" (sorry I cant remember the term used) which appears to be tripping the toggle rule.

I think I'm missing something pretty basic here.....

Pete

 

[WayneW]

Since it is the rules that are causing problems, add an additional AND to your rules to prevent them from firing during the first minute after boot up.

add:
When system boots (I forgot the right lingo)
the turn output 123 ON for 1 minute

change to:
When Input xxx goes secure
and output 123 is off
Toggle output yyy

 

[sandman]

Since it is the rules that are causing problems, add an additional AND to your rules to prevent them from firing during the first minute after boot up.

add:
When system boots (I forgot the right lingo)
the turn output 123 ON for 1 minute

change to:
When Input xxx goes secure
and output 123 is off
Toggle output yyy

Wayne

I agree and this is what I was thinking to do however I'm kinda concerned that you need to do this on a power up. ie: manage the ELK states when it starts.

I'm hoping to hear from ELK here and share with me what the best way to do this is as I'm sure it is going to impact lots of people, not just me.

Pete

 

[WayneW]

I'm sure it is going to impact lots of people, not just me.

not sure I agree with that as I haven't turned my Elk off in over a year. And I haven't noticed anybody else reporting the issue so maybe there aren't many doing a toggle function based upon a push button.

 

[gatchel]

I have noticed that when I used to power down my Elk with one remote zone expander upon power up I would get false alarms on the imputs on the zone expander. They usually cleared themselves after a couple of seconds and work as they should once powered up.

i think is has something to do with the elk main panel preaturely announcing an alarm on remote zones before the zone exxpander was actually online. I could be wrong but that is how it seems. I will test it with the latest version of elk firmware as I have not powered down since a recent upgrade.

 

[gatchel]

I tried it with the newest version of Firmware. When I power it up my panel announces alarms on zones 20,21,22,23. Zones 17,18,19 do not report.

Zones 20 and 21 are type 25 Water alarm zones 22 and 23 are CO Alarms. Zones 17 and 18 are type 03 and zone 19 is a type 01.


Hope this helps with the troubleshooting. I however do not have any outputs associated with these inputs...

 

[sandman]

I'm sure it is going to impact lots of people, not just me.

not sure I agree with that as I haven't turned my Elk off in over a year. And I haven't noticed anybody else reporting the issue so maybe there aren't many doing a toggle function based upon a push button.

HI Wayne

I'd have to agree, its VERY rare that anyone would turn the unit off however I was adding a few expanders in the last few weeks and the issues came rolling back. I have stuff hardwired in like lights and pool pumps so its hard to disconnect them every time I want to cycle the ELK.

Maybe there are relatively few doing toggles from expanders, no idea.

I'm after ELK to advise this is something they know of and hence do an AND function with a dummy output that is only active for the first 2 minutes of startup or this is something they were not aware of....

Something like:
On system startup
Turn output 200 on for 2 minutes

If Zone 50 becomes insecure
and output 200 is off
then toggle output 35

Anyway, life goes on

 

[sandman]

I have noticed that when I used to power down my Elk with one remote zone expander upon power up I would get false alarms on the imputs on the zone expander. They usually cleared themselves after a couple of seconds and work as they should once powered up.

HI Gatchel

I agree that this is nothig to worry about if the inputs are only alarm inputs. Its the "insecure" state of the input on power up thats tripping the toggle rule.

I originally thought the ELK would assume all of the inputs to be secure unless they were told otherwise when they check in on a power up however I think ELK make them all "insecure" and then wait for them to provide an update which could take up to 30 seconds.

As I've mentioned, I dont mind having to mask them with a dummy output however I think I'm still surprised I would have to do it this way...

Cheers..Pete

 

[wuench]

I had the same issue with my Garage door sensor and output, info is in this thread, below is Spanky's response:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=6037&hl=

The zone expander for the M1 can take up to 1 minute upon power up to report into the M1 its zone status. If you change any zone state on the M1XIN module it will be reported immediately. On power up all zones are temporarily bypassed until the zone expander reports in and the correct status is set. If the M1 is disarmed, the keypad will show the zone as violated until the zone reports in and then the status will show ready.

 

[sandman]

I had the same issue with my Garage door sensor and output, info is in this thread, below is Spanky's response:

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=6037&hl=

The zone expander for the M1 can take up to 1 minute upon power up to report into the M1 its zone status. If you change any zone state on the M1XIN module it will be reported immediately. On power up all zones are temporarily bypassed until the zone expander reports in and the correct status is set. If the M1 is disarmed, the keypad will show the zone as violated until the zone reports in and then the status will show ready.

Wuench

Thanks for the note. I understand what is being said, have no issues with the way the zones are bypassed... I spose my question still stands. What is the best way for the events NOT to trigger when I power the panel up except for "ANDING" all of the events with a dummy ouput that is only used on powerup...

Everyone may think this is trivial however if I use this to manage my WHOLE house with over 50 lights and other devices, powering every thing up when the elk is first powered on is really not that thing you want...

Pete

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You mentioned that the outputs from the Elk trip relays which then power your systems such as lights, etc... Where do you get the "source" for the power to these systems? In other words if the systems were only fed from a couple of feeds (say from a breaker panel or outlet) what about the possibility of switching that feed itself?

This way you will not have to modify a bunch of rules with any timer methodology described above. Just control the one relay so it will only switch (i.e. provide a power source) two minutes after the Elk powers up. Only one set of rules to write.

Of course this methodology will depend on the feasibility of wiring and such.

FYI, All Electronics has a new relay out that can switch a 40 amp load, though its coil is 120 VAC (plus it's only a few dollars).

Other than doing something with hardware, I don't see how you are going to get around this without writing a bunch of rules. Of course we will have to see what the expert (Spanky) says ....

 

[wuench]

For me, I moved the "critical" inputs to the main board. I don't see any other options except that or the rules. ANDing with a dummy output doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. The only drawback is it uses up some of your rule memory. Maybe you could AND the rules with a "zone un-bypassed" instead.

But I agree it would be nice if the M1G didn't behave this way. It may be a requirement so as not to make any assumptions for security reasons. ELK may be under the assumption that people don't power up that often, but us DIY/Hacker types are always playing, so we feel the pain the most.

 

[sandman]

Guys

I sincerly appreciate your comments as the feedback has been very good ! My concern also relates to:

Say I was going on holidays and the power dropped to the house due to some substation fault. We switched to batteries and had to stay there for 8 or more hours. Sure this is something very rare, would it ever happen, I have no idea however when the mains restarts, whats going to happen ? If I'm on a beach overseas ....(yeah sure a 2 week holiday on a beach, I'm dreaming !!!), I cant get back to manage all of this.

If the gods at ELK say I have to AND it, then cool, I accept this however as the Wuench mentioned, it would be nice to have the panel start up "cleanly" and not have to test for status when things started up not to trip any of the rules.

Anyway, I appreciate like minded people sharing their thoughts. ELK isnt that big in OZ so finding some specific help locally is a little harder. The local distributor (NESS) has been very good ( I used to work for them years n years ago) yet they are still feeling their way..

Cheers..Pete