ELK M1 - Ridiculous Town Permitting Experience

[joe39562]

I recently built an office building in my town and installed an ELK M1 to do the following automation:

1. Security
2. Lighting
3. Irrigation

More may follow but this is for starters. The M1 was installed under a permit as required and all zones were listed on the permit as alarm devices. One of the devices was a rain sensor. I also had an output expander with a 24v transformer connected to be the irrigation control through rules. All done and inspected (whether inspector had a clue what he was looking at is highly questionable)

Fast forward to after the building was built. Landscaping is done and I get a call saying I never got an electrical permit for a sprinkler system. (Plumbing permit was obtained for the backflow). I said "it is part of the alarm system and that was already permitted and inspected by yourself." He says "well the rain sensor needs to be installed by a licensed electrician and you need a permit for the controller." I said, "both were part of the alarm which was permited and inspected." He continued repeating the same statment so I said "I don't see why I need to get the same device permitted and inspected twice." He continues with saying "it wasnt specifically designated as an irrigation controller so it needs a new permit and inspection."

I would assume an automation controller as it was designated would cover an automatic sprinkler system? Especially since the literature I submitted with the permit showed pictures of irrigation from elk. He told me if I don't agree I can call DCS (deparment of community affairs) and they can explain it. I called them, described the situation and sent them a copy of the permit, and guess what they agree with me! There now going to give me a letter detailing such.

This was really about principle more than anything else because Ive been getting delays and fees for over a year to build a 1600 sq ft office building. I wanted to see if anyone else had any experiences like this?

 

[gatchel]

Local government(s) is/are broke. They are trying to make up for it with every penny they can get. Most of the inspectors I have dealt with really don't know what they should, for the most part. There are always a few exceptions...

t least some other government body agreed with you. It could have been a lot worse.

 

[JimS]

I have found that it really depends on the particular person you end up contacting. Some are hard to deal with and don't like people who do the work themselves (maybe they used to work in that profession as a contractor). Others seem to be more concerned with the end result. I had a house that I did some major work on and had gone to talk with the plumbing department about what was expected. The person was very unhelpful and practically wouldn't even talk to me. He said something about if I was a brain surgeon I would have had to go to school to learn it. Apparently he thought plumbing codes were similar somehow and told me I had to go figure it out myself. I asked around and figured out what I thought I needed to do, did it, and called for inspection figuring they would find something wrong. I showed up at the appointed time and the inspector wasn't there. I was a bit worried about it and called them the next morning. Turns out the inspector got there a bit early, signed it off, and tucked the papers under a board. He said it was the best work he had seen in quite a while.

If they find some minor things they want done it is sometimes easier to just do it than argue. I had an electrical inspector say I needed a #4 wire for ground from the meter base to the main panel even though there was a MUCH larger wire (000?) making the same exact connection. I objected but he didn't budge. Not unfriendly but just insisted it was required. So I added the wire.

In some towns where I am now they require the DIY to show they know what they are doing by taking a test before they are allowed to do electrical work (only on their own home). But nearby I could do electrical contracting with no license or proof that I know anything (but they require roofing people to be licensed and double check that.) Crazy.

You just never know....

 

[Photon]

I agree it is a fund raiser. I have to renew the registration with the county sheriff for my security system annually even though it has no outdoor sounder, and it isn't monitored by any security service.

 

[tmbrown97]

My most recent permit experience... I had a gas firepit installed and some outdoor electrical outlets I put in myself; on the same permit. I called for inspection and left a valve-key and lighter on the pit, as I wouldn't be home. Inspector called, said I didn't answer the door, so call back to reschedule. Turns out, he had to come inside the house and ensure I had CO2 sensors installed... there was no real specification for where they had to be or what style, but he had to see them.

What surprised me was that he failed me for 1) not painting my conduit, even tho it's UV Rated, if he can't see those words clearly on the section that's sticking out of the ground, it has to be painted; 2) I was missing a screw that holds the inner cover inside the electrical panel. The fire pit? Passed - he never even let me light it; he just asked if it worked. No sniff test, no tools/equipment; no requirement about painting the steel pipe (that's really rusted bad already), etc... Seemed very odd to me.

 

[Del91574]

Carbon DIoxide sensors? odd...never heard of a requirement for those.

My experience has been most inspectors have a pet peeve or they look for a hot item that was just covered in a recent refresher or code change book, but they do call out odd items, not to mention, like most trades, there are good and bad, as well as plenty that really aren't qualified or know what is truly being looked at.

Case in point, the fire marshal was looking at a job we were on this week...FACP has tons of troubles on it from disabled tampers and flows, ground faults, etc. They didn't do an above ceiling inspection and the existing all had wiring running into boxes with no bushings or similar....wonder why there's all ground faults and troubles. The new stuff runs back to a NAC extender, 100% clear wiring and was connected to a new loop, mainly to ignore the other issues and provide us a means to deny any of our wiring and equipment was to blame for the FACP issues. Failed, but because of issues that already existed in no part to any of our wiring or functionality. Going to be an appeal and reinspection, but still it was because they did not want to listen to a valid explanation of our permit and scope of work for our area, not an entire building that already was existing.

 

[tmbrown97]

Oops - typo; CO sensors. New law in california requires all homes to have them, so they use any excuse they can to check for them.

As for that situation, that sounds like a nightmare - the inspector may quite possibly require you to bring the old stuff up to code, which means the customer gets forced to pony up the unexpected costs... and hopefully you have well written contracts that keep any of that from falling on you. I've seen that many times, where a simple new addition requires that anything old that could possibly be related must be brought to the current code - if you so much as touch it, the grandfathered rules no longer apply.

 

[bucko]

I feel for you guys. Suppose it's another reason I live in China now. In fact, my new house build here, I had them write into the contract that "I" must sign off on all phases of work. Appointed myself inspector since there is no such thing in China. No permits, licenses, or inspections. Just buy the land and build it.

 

[wuench]

I have friends that are building inspectors. I think part of the problem is that no one inspector can possibly be up to speed on all areas, so that is one reason they split up the permitting. And you are right, building inspectors are just regular guys, with experience in the area they inspect, but they rarely get the training they need to keep up with current technology. So keep that in mind when you talk to them, do your research on issues and justify it with documentation, you can reason with them.

BTW, I am told if you don't think you are getting satisfaction from the building inspectors office it is better to contact your alderman and have him/her advocate for you than to try to escalate too far within the office. So calling your DCS was probably a good move on your part.

Also, I have seen one job in a local small city where the fire inspector expected a kickback. It was refused and the number of violations went up, including forcing the owner of the company to stop parking in the handicap spot. So there is always that unfortunate part of it too, depending on the city you are in and the inspector you are dealing with.

 

[Del91574]

@ Work.... we asked the FA contractor for a separate run of modules and a NAC panel for our new horn strobes. Our stuff is clear for shorts, opens and grounds back to the new devices and we assume no liability for the host system, as the FA contractor (Simp****) for this building tied the devices on to their SLC, not us, so whatever was existing before still existed after the connection, so nobody could say "it was clear of faults and working before your wiring was tied in" and they supplied all the building devices, either pre-existing or to replace damaged units.

@ Bucko....I can't say I agree 100% with how things work over there, but if you're happy, so be it. I know I won't be purchasing a lot of Chinese goods because of the knockoff factor or the QC issues. I'd be scared to look in any building construction project over there, given what I've seen on the other end of the spectrum. Lots of bogus UL "listed" stickers and similar have been falsified by them on many electrical components and devices that were imported over here, including wiring, outlets and switches, circuit breakers, smoke detectors, CO detectors and the list goes on. I'm not 100% familiar with the legal system over there, but if they're willing to do that to items that can kill someone that consistently, kinda makes the mind think a little.

 

[JimS]

Then there is the other extreme...

I lived in a small town where there were no building inspectors in the county (they did have inspections for septic systems because of state requirements). I didn't believe it when I moved there but checked and found out it was true. I upgraded my electric service - new meter base, new breaker panel, underground service replaced overhead. The electric company said they would run the pole to meter wires if I provided the trench. I called and set a time for them to change over the service. They sent two guys out who asked if I was ready for them to hook it up. I asked if they wanted to look it over first. They said they didn't have time for that and were just there to hook it up. I had double checked everything so said yes. They connected it and went on their way. End of story. Was very nice since I knew what I was doing (not an electrician but do electronics and had done similar work before) but made me wonder if that had any relation to what seemed like a high number of house fires.