Elk or Omni Pro

[ctay]

If you were building a home in the next six months which security / automation controller would you choose?  
 
Background:
I built my current home in 2006 and chose an Elk M1 that has been very reliable.  The only complaints I have with the elk are:
1) lack of a Elk supported mobile application (Apple or Android).  I know there are 3rd party apps but I feel this is an area that should be supported by the manufacturer. 
2) Lack of any product updates since 2006. I expected to see the Elk M2G by now but no dice.  I know there are new modules and some growth in the wireless realm but the M1 has not changed at all since I purchased mine in 2006 and doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon.
 
I don't currently intend to run any specific Automation software.  I previously used CQC but frankly I was never able to get it off the ground as well as I would have liked and found that once I ditched it entirely and transferred all the critical elements over to the Elk I was a lot happier.  The Elk never needs any attention, never needs updates etc - it just always works.  I haven't really touched it in years and it just keeps doing what I need it to do.  
 
So it is fair to say I am leaning toward Elk but want to make sure I do good due diligence on the alternatives before just following the path I chose 6 years ago.
 
I would really appreciate any advice!
 
Chris
 
 

 

[fcwilt]

I too have been disappointed that Elk has not brought out the "M2G". The HAI has some good features (dedicated network port, multiple serial ports) but I much prefer the more modular approach of Elk when it comes to expanding the system inputs/outputs.
 
Does no "M2G" mean Elk is having problems? Or does it mean they are selling all the M1Gs they can produce? Who knows.
 
I have installed both.

 

[drvnbysound]

Regarding the two issues that you mentioned, I've got a couple of questions:
 
1) Is there anything that the 3rd party apps don't do that you'd like? I certainly prefer apps by companies/manufacturers, but I've been VERY pleased with eKeypad!
2) While there may not have been any updates, are there any features that you want that aren't available via the M1?

 

[dgage]

Ctay,
 
Working in the IT industry and being a technology/gadget geek, I was very surprised by the general lack of technical progress in the home automation/security realm.  I haven't installed either yet although I am leaning to the HAI, primarily due to it's more direct (read cheaper) integration with my lighting choice of Lutron RadioRa2 and the fact that HAI seems to integrate better with whole home audio. 
 
Having less direct knowledge of HAI and ELK, I wonder if you couldn't say very similar things about both of them.  When is HAI going to come out with the OmniPro 3?
 
David

 

[ctay]

Regarding the two issues that you mentioned, I've got a couple of questions:
 
1) Is there anything that the 3rd party apps don't do that you'd like? I certainly prefer apps by companies/manufacturers, but I've been VERY pleased with eKeypad!
2) While there may not have been any updates, are there any features that you want that aren't available via the M1?

 
1) really I don't think there is - I just don't like the idea of having to pay another $99 for something that should be included and developed by the manufacturer. 
2) Don't get me wrong - I think the Elk has lots of great features and it is a very functional product. I do think that there are some things they can improve on and surely there are lots of great features that I haven't thought of that they could add.  Here is my short list:

• Integrate the network port
• increase the memory - I haven't run out of rule memory but I always worry that I will.
• Better touch screen design. The camera integration could use some work - in fact there really isn't much that works with them these days.

 

[picta]

I had used Elk in my old house, but now I have HAI. They are very similar systems at the core, but each has some strong points the other does not. My decision towards HAI was motivated by the lighting system we have (Centralite) but I miss a "fast zone" type that Elk has. Also native integration with Omnistats was a plus, as we have several. And on the bonus side, there is a 3d party app called Haiku that provides fantastic interface for HAI.

 

[drvnbysound]

I might be wrong, but I doubt that an app by either manufacturer (HAI/ELK) is going to be provided, or free. It takes a lot of time and resources to develop and support an app (i.e. updates). If anything, I think they would develop their own and charge $99 for it, so they could gain that market rather than allowing someone else to collect that income. Having said that, I don't think this is in Elk's current interest, since eKeypad is a legit integration partner... and they already have a working app. If anything, they could choose to procure eKeypad, and just re-brand the app...  I think that might be cheaper than re-creating the wheel.
 
Regarding the short list... I agree that I'd like all of those things too. However, I've got a M1G now, and I doubt that I'd buy a M2G (as an upgrade) just to have these features. I don't know if those alone make it worthwhile enough to cover the expenses (design, functional testing, UL testing, etc.) that would entail releasing a M2G.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Ctay,
 
Working in the IT industry and being a technology/gadget geek, I was very surprised by the general lack of technical progress in the home automation/security realm.  I haven't installed either yet although I am leaning to the HAI, primarily due to it's more direct (read cheaper) integration with my lighting choice of Lutron RadioRa2 and the fact that HAI seems to integrate better with whole home audio. 
 
David

 
The vast majority of automation installs are done by pro installers, many of whom (at least up until recently and probabl still so) are not techno-geeks like us. On top of which, pro installers are probably more likely concerned that there be a core of functionality which is highly robust. Tweakability and fast development takes a back seat to a system that's likely to have high up time and which therefore won't cost them time and money to support. All that pushes them away from the bleeding edge. And, unfortunately for folks like us, tends to push them away from software based solutions a lot as well. That's where people in the IT community could make the changeover into a new area of reveues and I keep encouraging them to do so. Hook up with someone who knows the physical install bits and provide the IT infrastructure and software slash customization.

 

[ctay]

I had used Elk in my old house, but now I have HAI. They are very similar systems at the core, but each has some strong points the other does not. My decision towards HAI was motivated by the lighting system we have (Centralite) but I miss a "fast zone" type that Elk has. Also native integration with Omnistats was a plus, as we have several. And on the bonus side, there is a 3d party app called Haiku that provides fantastic interface for HAI.

Does HAI have better integration with Centralite?  My litejet system works great with my Elk but I really don't remember if I'm missing something or how difficult it was to integrate the two - it was a while ago...

 

[picta]

HAI has a good integration, just define the serial port as Centralite, but the main attraction was that I could configure units in OP2 as different lighting types. The first 176 units are Centralite, then I have z-wave, x10 and somfy motors. Elk does not have an easy mix of lighting types. I don't have 176 lighting loads, but I use almost all available units with virtual loads. This is what makes Elegance so great, I can define a load in the software and link it to a button on the keypad, and then have rules in HAI based on the status of the virtual load. Our Centralite keypads control TVs, speakers, shades, fireplace, skylights, locks and other devices.
 
For example, we recently got Philips Hue bulbs to play with. They have an API so can be easily automated. I just defined a load in Elegance as "Hue Bulbs", re-configured the keypad button that used to control the original fixture to point to that virtual load, turned the physical load to stay always on, and now we have fun with these RGB lights without modifying existing habits. Same keypad buttons turn the Hue bulbs on and off via API based on the status of the virtual load.

 

[ano]

Here is the facts, as much as we don't like to believe this, the number of people installing automation panels in their homes is relatively small, including professionally installed panels.  ELK and HAI are only going to develop and create products if they believe they will be profitable selling them.  The fact that there aren't many models to chose from, and the fact that these models aren't updated very often speaks volumes how this market just isn't all that large.   Both ELK and HAI (not counting Leviton) are pretty small companies.
 
Will there be a M2G? I have no idea. I have heard that HAI is working on a "Omni Pro 3" but rumor has it that it will only be available to pro installers.  I think that would be a mistake, but it is their call. 
 
The fact that HAI and ELK sell products to non-pros can be a problem for installers, because people that will be paying $50K for their systems see that you can buy these panels for quite low prices, when professional installers like to markup these prices quite a bit.  Control4 and other "professional only" systems aren't sold to non-pros, which allows professional installers to protect their margins.
 
How to sell profitably to both pro installers and non-pros has been a challenge for these companies.  I'm not sure what the solution is, but lets hope its not a problem that can't be solved in a good fashion to all involved. 

 

[fcwilt]

I don't understand why CI's try to make money on the hardware. What they have to offer, that is unique, is their expertise. By charging for this (and labor) it matters little if vendors sell direct or not. It really doesn't matter to the bottom line where you put the profit.

 

[Del91574]

Here is the facts, as much as we don't like to believe this, the number of people installing automation panels in their homes is relatively small, including professionally installed panels.  ELK and HAI are only going to develop and create products if they believe they will be profitable selling them.  The fact that there aren't many models to chose from, and the fact that these models aren't updated very often speaks volumes how this market just isn't all that large.   Both ELK and HAI (not counting Leviton) are pretty small companies.
 
Will there be a M2G? I have no idea. I have heard that HAI is working on a "Omni Pro 3" but rumor has it that it will only be available to pro installers.  I think that would be a mistake, but it is their call. 
 
The fact that HAI and ELK sell products to non-pros can be a problem for installers, because people that will be paying $50K for their systems see that you can buy these panels for quite low prices, when professional installers like to markup these prices quite a bit.  Control4 and other "professional only" systems aren't sold to non-pros, which allows professional installers to protect their margins.
 
How to sell profitably to both pro installers and non-pros has been a challenge for these companies.  I'm not sure what the solution is, but lets hope its not a problem that can't be solved in a good fashion to all involved. 

A lot of this is true..but the truth is HAI and Elk don't directly sell to end users, they "skirt" the issue of 3rd party resellers and offer some support to end users, contrary to Control4 or others. The pro in me disagrees to a point in having these manufacturers provide support to an end user to across the board, but that's another discussion.
 
Sure, there are margins on the hardware, I don't understand how some of the internet resellers can get product for a significant amount cheaper than myself, even when I deal in volume. The item that is put in the equation of for purchasing the hardware is knowledge and ability. It's like the joke about the tech drawing an X on a machine then hitting with a hammer, then billing cheap for the repair and significant on "knowing where to put the X".
 
I don't believe it's a function of how often the hardware is/isn't updated, but more of the market and if the companies can see a return on sending a new panel or revision through testing and UL...which is not cheap by any stretch. In the specific case of the M1, one of the software updates was specifically for another company owner to land a bunch of takeovers using GE wireless (specific sensor types). The updates and patches are driven by the market and how significant the bugs involved are.
 
The fact is, it takes a lot to get these systems out there and reliable first, there is not a "patch" or automatic update like Windows when something is amiss....and I am happy that there isn't a "firmware of the day" in my world (barring a couple of manufacturers).
 
Would I like to see a next gen platform, sure, but do I want it to be compatible with what's out there already,absolutely, is that going to happen soon? Can't say. Do I want the manufacturers to be more progressive, you bet, but do I want to deal with the bleeding edge on a simple alarm panel, not at all, I deal with that on the large access control and video systems I work on, which are far more robust and complex, and they're patched and updated when the next bug is found usually.

 

[ctay]

I know it isn't a popular concept in the pro-integrator realm but I don't see why I should have to pay a 50 - 100 percent markup on the hardware plus a programming fee.  This is the cost that keeps "premium" lighting systems like Lutron at a premium and not at the main stream level.  
 
I'm probably going to end up going with Centralite Elegance XL over Lutron Homeworks because of the restrictions Lutron places on their product.  It may be light years ahead of Centralite - I'll never know because the cost after integrator markup is roughly twice to three times the equivalent Centralite system.  Centralite is "dealer only" too but I can get it through a distributor like Worthington and avoid the integrator markup. 

 

[Dean Roddey]

If you wonder why, spend a few months doing system installs for a living. It's the old 'walk a mile in my shoes' thing. I don't know what kind of work you do, but probably most people complain about the cost of whatever it is you create as well, while I doubt you feel yourself overpaid.
 
It's a tough business, and it's fraught with catchas and unknowns, because it is 'custom' installation, not building something and selling it over and over. No matter how long you spend explaining the system (which is your time as well of course which isn't being paid for often, or only lightly so), he probably won't really grok it until it's actually in place, at which time he'll generally decide that he wants various things done differently. And there's flakey hardware you have to interface to because that's what the customer has, that ends up costing you time trying to work around making it reasonably reliable. And the endless tweaking that anyone who really cares about the quality of his work is going to end up doing to get it just right.
 
You can of course just argue with the customer constantly about the need to pay for these things, or just build it into the price so theres no suprises, or fewer anyway. If it ends up going super-smoothly, you can always cut them some slack on the price of some subsequent tweaking or something.