Elk or Omni Pro

[pete_c]

I think today and specfically here on the CT DIY forum we have folks that do know the how and what of what they are looking to install down to the nitty gritty details (engineering).
 
That said many companies / or pro installers will not spend the time to provide those details on the methodologies of how and what.
 
Why should they when they can sell a pro system no questions asked at whatever price they want to said consumer? 
 
Many consumers don't care about the nitty gritty details; and primarily are only looking for something that works at whatever the price is. 
 
The bread and butter of said mfg is just simply that and nothing more complex. 
 
Similiar to when you purchase something and dare question the cost of said purchase somewhat turning the whole thing around such that the consumer is made to feel less than stellar for even considering asking questions by "insulting the seller". 
 
The selling tactic does work though.
 
That could be just a widget on their phone and knowing that they could control their lighting from anywhere anytime for $30 per month plus installation costs.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

The knowledgeable DIY person will take their system to the next level and can provide an extreme customizing effort that no pro installer would understand, nor would want to touch.
 
I believe this could lead to additional product lines in the future possibly.  But then again, if it could be sold, developed and marketed as a profitable project.  Again, the DIY type doesn't care about this though.

 

[ctay]

Well, no, I'm sure the installer thinks his time is quite valuable. It's the issue of contention with the customer about paying for it. Why even introduce that element if it you don't have to? it's already a difficult enough dance.
 
Manufacturers restrict their market, I presume, because they know that,whoever does the installation, if it doesn't work their product and their company is who takes the publicity hit. And they also know of course that the DIY community for anything remotely complex is extremely small, and it's also very unwilling to spend much money on the whole. In order to get that very small and very price conscious market, they'd inevitablye lose a lot of the pro market, which is the only way they can really make the kind of money that would allow them to be a successful company. So it would likely be a net loss for them, not a gain.
 
Believe me, our being DIY friendly doesn't help us in the pro community. And we have to walk a very difficult line. We have to have a pricing model that will work for pros, but we can't sell it to DIYers for less. But DIYers are so price conscious that we are probably out of the price range for a lot of them. It's a tough thing to deal with.

 
Pro's having a problem with a product that is DIY friendly is a perfect example of the flawed business model that I'm talking about.  The pro business model then seems to be "My value is in being able to buy something you can't buy on your own" instead of "my value is in being able to make things work together that you probably wouldn't be able to make work together on your own."  They are in essence selling access to a product - which really seems to be no value add.
 
I sell my time for a living.  I've found that selling your time and expertise only works if you know that what you are asking is worth it.  If I can't articulate why my time is worth what I'm charging then it ceases to be worth what I'm charging.
 
However, I can see the argument of not wanting your product in the hands of uneducated installers that will give you a bad name.  It costs a lot to build a brand and you don't want some yokel damaging your brand because they don't know what they are doing.  That is a lot different than allowing the end user to install his or her own system in his or her own home for his or her own use.  All that you require with that transaction is a simple warning that this product is difficult to configure and you recomend the use of a licensed and trained installer.  Install at your own risk.  Done.

 

[Dean Roddey]

But the thing is, lots of people will probably will claim that they could do it themselves, hence why the installer's time isn't worth what he says it is. This is pretty obvious any time you see discussions on general purpose fora about the cost of custom installation. Even if the customer couldn't actually do it, the CI is still in de facto competition with DIY when setting a price. The CI is unlikely to get more business under such a scheme, and may lose some, and face more price pressures. So there's generally only risk and little reward from the CI's point of view to opening the product to DIY.
 
What do you sell your time doing?
 
As to your last point, the problem is that if you sell it openly, then anyone who wants to install them can do so, and can undersell the vetted installers who are taking on extra burdens that insure that they are qualified and running bona fide automation companies. So it's still a problem. You can't make it openly available but require that you only install it yourself.
 
And again, if opening it up to DIY would mean a big increase in bucks, then it would be a different balance. But in business terms the DIY market for anything at all complicated is very, very small. So if there's any downside to doing it, it's not necessarily a given that the benefits will make up the difference, much less provide an uptick.

 

[Dean Roddey]

That's interesting and opposite my experience. I find selling expertise much easier.
 
In the world of the internet where a little research can get the answer to so many questions selling hardware with a big markup is getting tougher.
 
Yes many customers wont care but many other customers, if they find you charging $5000 for a $2500 TV set, are not going to have nice thoughts about you. <g>

 
But then that's really the point of dealer only hardware. There's not going to be a huge internet warehouse selling it for almost no markup against whom you have to compete when you are doing very low volume.

 

[picta]

BTW, HAI recently introduced US version of their hard-wired lighting system, omni-bus. I don't know much about it besides of what they listed on the website, and it is more expensive then Elegance, but probably worth taking a look at.

 

[Mark S.]

Back to the Omni vs. Elk question - I have been considering a replacement for my ancient Stargate, and I am waffling on the Omni Pro or Elk M1G question myself. The strengths of the Stargate were a very large program memory, lots of relay out and analog in with expansion, the ability to do three-deep nested if-then-else programing, and a Homseer plugin - all features that I have gotten used to and would like to see in my new choice. But apparently I can't get everything. The most important to me are a reliable HS Plugin, lots of relay out (with relays controllable via HS), and the most memory possible for program lines. In your experience, which one fits that bill the best?

 

[fcwilt]

But then that's really the point of dealer only hardware. There's not going to be a huge internet warehouse selling it for almost no markup against whom you have to compete when you are doing very low volume.

 
Agreed but (since I wasn't clear) the internet has often made it possible to find out most anything, including prices on dealer-only hardware.
 
And you are a wonderful example of someone who is selling their expertise (as a programmer) since the "product" (a file to download) has almost zero cost, and in one sense, has no physical reality at all. <g>
 
Remember when there was a time that computers had dedicated stores where folks went to buy them? And now they are (more or less) a commodity item that you often buy from a store selling tons and tons of off-the-shelf hardware.
 
That to me is where most A/V gear is, just a commodity item. To put together a complete system that works well together takes that expertise I mentioned. But to place an order and re-sell at a large profit?  Not much skill involved there.
 
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
And CQC is still the best of the best.

 

[picta]

Back to the Omni vs. Elk question - I have been considering a replacement for my ancient Stargate, and I am waffling on the Omni Pro or Elk M1G question myself. The strengths of the Stargate were a very large program memory, lots of relay out and analog in with expansion, the ability to do three-deep nested if-then-else programing, and a Homseer plugin - all features that I have gotten used to and would like to see in my new choice. But apparently I can't get everything. The most important to me are a reliable HS Plugin, lots of relay out (with relays controllable via HS), and the most memory possible for program lines. In your experience, which one fits that bill the best?

 
Elk. HS plugin for HAI has issues, especially when it comes to higher numbered units (outputs). Both Elk and HAI have similar programming capacity, but neither has analog inputs. I still use my Stargate controller for analog sensors, and HS plugin to read the values.

 

[pete_c]

Here an HS HAI plugin user.  The plugin has been EOL now for some 10 year and while kind of works is not something I would utilize if I was starting over.  The Elk HS plugin has way better support.

 

[ano]

I had a Stargate and I use HAI now, which is 1000x better than a Stargate, but I agree with others. If you are going to use HomeSeer, the HAI serial plugin is not acceptable.  In my case I kept HAI and dumped HomeSeer for CQC.  I really like HomeSeer, but the fact that Rich/Rick haven't ever bothered to update the HAI plugin was reason enough for me to stop using it.  If you insist on HomeSeer, Elk is the best choice.

 

[picta]

I have HAI OP2 and still can interface it with HS, but I had to write a script that processes messages from HaikuHelper. It is better than the original plugin as I get instant notifications from the panel. My parents have Elk and HS, and the native MG1 plugin works without issues.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Agreed but (since I wasn't clear) the internet has often made it possible to find out most anything, including prices on dealer-only hardware.
 
And you are a wonderful example of someone who is selling their expertise (as a programmer) since the "product" (a file to download) has almost zero cost, and in one sense, has no physical reality at all. <g>
 
Remember when there was a time that computers had dedicated stores where folks went to buy them? And now they are (more or less) a commodity item that you often buy from a store selling tons and tons of off-the-shelf hardware.
 
That to me is where most A/V gear is, just a commodity item. To put together a complete system that works well together takes that expertise I mentioned. But to place an order and re-sell at a large profit?  Not much skill involved there.
 
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
And CQC is still the best of the best.

 
For the most part, I'm not really arguing one way or another necessarily, since I'm not a CI. Just presenting a POV that I've heard a lot.
 
Though, in the case of CQC, that's me creating a product and selling it over and over as is, which is very much unlike the customization world (though the support cost is pretty high.) You know what you are buying when you buy it.
 
OTOH, I do some customization for folks here and there, and certainly it makes me sympathetic to the CI's plight. It's a tough row to hoe, because you don't start with 'here is a product to buy', you start with an agreement that in theory you both understand and agree on, but generally the customer doesn't fully understand it until it's done and he starts using it, and the customizer (unless he's worked already with every piece of gear involved and in that combination, which is probably sort of rare) can't foresee the issues he'll run into. If you set a fixed cost you run the risk of going broke trying to deal with things that really aren't your fault. If you don't, then you are asking the customer to enter into an open ended financial obligation which might make them quite uncomfortable.

 

[pete_c]

but I had to write a script that processes messages from HaikuHelper.

Have you abandoned the HS HAI plugin or are you still using it?
 
Yes; here mostly because HA is a hobby, I've never really looked at costs over the years. 
 
So mostly the HAI panel has been utilized for the basic functioning of the home functions. 
 
HS has been utilized mostly lately to play or experiment with as I can connect just about anything to it with little effort and build a touchscreen interface for say one function in a few minutes.  That said the response times I see via the touch interface for just about anything are just OK whether its status or function; but it looks nice.  Simple as the HAI Omnitouch screens are (serial or IP) the response times are quick and functional which works for me.
 
I have seen though lately (2013) most people care more about the aesthetics of the touchscreens rather than the function or speed of said touchscreen interfaces.  So a widget on the PDA phone that talks to the cloud that can control some function of their home automation will generally work for most folks these days; no matter what the response times are (or security or lack there of).
 
This takes me back a few years to a conversation with a privately owned security / alarm company owner.  He did mention that most of his clients preferred a simple Ipad type interface to their security systems functioning or not over a basic no frills touch interface or keypad. 
 
Off on a bit of a tangent...
 
Many years ago when the internet was mostly accessed by dial up; one of the most popular applications / services was Compuserve.  That said it was mostly the simple graphics of the software which attracted most users as the data transfer was relatively slow.  Later came AOL which also was abundance of graphics mixed in with some sounds which to many folks provided some instant gratifications even at a 300 baud data dial up rate.  The "interface" / "graphics" / simplicity stuff works the same way today.  (using an tablet or PDA phone - which has a few functional widgets - like facebook or the ability to tweet what had for breakfast that day). 

 

[fcwilt]

If you set a fixed cost you run the risk of going broke trying to deal with things that really aren't your fault. If you don't, then you are asking the customer to enter into an open ended financial obligation which might make them quite uncomfortable.

 
That is indeed the conumdrum. But given that the "goal line" in home automation projects often changes I favor a "cost plus" approach. The last two houses I built were done that way and it worked out well. You do have to find a honest contractor.