ELK Thermostats -- could it really be this easy?
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hult
Active Member
It may be worth adding that if you should happen to buy a RC-80B from (eg) Smarthome and discover that you actual need an RC-90B, or RC-100B, or RC-112B or RC-122B instead, you may be SOL unless you can get a licenced HVAC person to collaborate in the return.
Smarthome writes emphatically in red: " The HAI Omni series of products is professional grade and should only be installed by a licensed professional. All tech support inquiries and product return requests must be made by a licensed professional directly to the manufacturer at 1-800-229-7256. ".
SH doesn't make that requirement for the Aprilaire 8870 despite its probably being nominally more complicated to configure because the 8870 can serve the function of any of those five different HAI t-stats and is covered by their no-questions-asked, 30-day return privilege. Of course, since it is completly flexible, there's not likely to be any need to return one for a different flavor ;-)
My 2 cents ... Marc
That problem is solved very easily: Don't buy HAI from smarthome.
For example, try here:
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...at=0&page=2
or here:
http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/HAI-Therm...ts/Item/RC-80B/
or here:
http://www.hometech.com/modules/therm.html#HAI
or here:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/product_104646_detailed.htm
or [fill in the etailer of your preference here]
$30 cheaper at AO without the BS (unless for some reason HAI won't take returns from their distributors which sounds real strange) if you are not a licensed HVAC installer. I really don't understand that as there are a lot of other things on that site that are 'professional grade' that they will support (and four other sites did not have an equivalent note).
I will say that when I needed something from HAI (I have these thermostats), they responded promptly and shipped the part I was missing.
Just my opinion, but it seems a silly thing for Smarthome to do.
For example, try here:
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...at=0&page=2
or here:
http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/HAI-Therm...ts/Item/RC-80B/
or here:
http://www.hometech.com/modules/therm.html#HAI
or here:
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/product_104646_detailed.htm
or [fill in the etailer of your preference here]
$30 cheaper at AO without the BS (unless for some reason HAI won't take returns from their distributors which sounds real strange) if you are not a licensed HVAC installer. I really don't understand that as there are a lot of other things on that site that are 'professional grade' that they will support (and four other sites did not have an equivalent note).
I will say that when I needed something from HAI (I have these thermostats), they responded promptly and shipped the part I was missing.
Just my opinion, but it seems a silly thing for Smarthome to do.
They can. I had one in place for a year before integrating it (I originally thought I was going to buy a HAI system at the time, but in the end bought an Elk). It is a full featured programmable thermostat. Just don't plug in the wiring for hooking it to a controller.
hult
Active Member
Yup. But it may not be entirely Smarthome's doing. The folks with the technical expertise with HAI are at HAI, not Smarthome ... This might just be a more efficient was of getting customers' needs filled with fewer hoops. My experience with SmartHome is that they really always truly do _try_ , but ... it wouldn't even occur to me to call Smarthome with a technical question about Aprilaire ;-)
I don't have any experience with HAI, but its always nice to hear of cooperative manufacturers/sources. The breadth of HAI's offerings makes for a somewhat more closed 'system' than I use but their thermostats seem to enjoy support from as many HA software platforms and panels as Aprilaire/Enerzone -- perhaps even more if you include HAI itself.
I fully expected the level of support for Enerzone to plummet when they were bought by Aprilaire but that seems not to be the case. The Aprilaires are backward-compatible with the Enerzones on a hardware and software level which in itself was a pleasant surprise. This may be in part because the US HVAC industry has a lot of inertia. Installers I know are quite happy to not have to master something new just for the sake of newness ... And because so many are small businesses that get to choose their suppliers, their support/loyalty is important.
Upshot is that there are at least two good choices for DIY HA communicating thermostats.
... Marc
Ranger Digital
Active Member
I am not aware of any licensing HVAC requirements in texas to install HAI. there is of course Security licensing required if the hai or whatever is being used as an alarm/security system.
anyone have a chime-in on this? we are currently installing HVAC automation and have never heard of such licensing. we have of course our security license.
i sure hope i am right, LOL
edit: we do NOT install the HVAC, just the thermostats and automation.
anyone have a chime-in on this? we are currently installing HVAC automation and have never heard of such licensing. we have of course our security license.
i sure hope i am right, LOL
edit: we do NOT install the HVAC, just the thermostats and automation.
Excellent Points Marc.
I am playing with the Beta flash (M1XSP) that allows text messaging to the 8870s. Once the bugs are worked out, we should be able to open up most of the features of the stat. The 8870 is by far the best looking and feature rich stat on the market. The tech support guys are great at helping out with their protocol spec.
-=*Sharby*=-
I'm a little surprised that the RCS thermos (TR-16 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...t=85&page=1 and TR-40 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...=85&page=1) are being left out of this conversation.
They are competetively priced, can be used stand-alone, are capable of multistage cooling and heating, and communicate over 485 as well.
They are competetively priced, can be used stand-alone, are capable of multistage cooling and heating, and communicate over 485 as well.
Interesting comment, I was regarding the comment about not taking HAI returns. Directing technical support questions to the manufacturer is not unreasonable (as you note they may just not have it).
What I find 'wrong' is not taking returns for a product that a store sells (in this case Smarthome). With a breadth of products I don't think it is unreasonable to not provide detailed support for an item (although some companies do very well with this) and direct that to the manufacturer.
Just my two cents.
hult
Active Member
Because the Statnet protocol with Aprilaire's extensions is publically available, this would seem to allow the user to communicate with non-Aprilaire devices using any instruction that doesn't use an instruction valid for an Aprilaire or Enerzone device actually on the network, right ? If this is the case, -- and issues of intellectual property (IP) rights aside for the moment -- this would allow one to add DIY devices to a M1XSP that is connected to the Statnet network for essentially no cost for the interfaces. And because the Aprilaire 8811 segments the RS-485 network, the DIY equipment could be isolated on a separate segment from the T-stats.
One can make a a bare-bones remote input device with nine I/O channels including 10-bit resolution ADC for about $12 in parts including pcb. (The cost of appropriate AVR MCUs (eg ATtiny84)+ RS-485 driver chips is at less than $5 in quantity one at www.digikey.com. This does not include the cost of the actual sensors.)
The instruction set could be a superset of the Aprilaire/Statnet command set. The limitation of only 64 devices on the network would still allow for one or more THOL input boards and Aprilaire thermostats, and temperature and humidity sensors in all the rooms, porches, entrances and hallways in a house and associated outbuildings..
I have a family of THOL (Temperature, Humidity, Occupancy, Light) sensor boards that I've developed for my personal (non-commercial) purposes that was designed in part with this schema in mind. I've begun posting some of that at info at www.ECOntrol.org/diy_projects.htm. The fanciest version is all that is posted there at present. I can provide more information/details/files if others want to also pursue this. These optionally also support 1-wire ADC, counter/frequency and temperature.
The schematics and printed circuit boards can be loaded and revised using the free versions of Cadsoft's Eagle software. The AVR ATtiny MCU can be programmed with the free version of BASCOM software, although I developed them with the paid-for, less restricted versions of both Eagle and BASCOM.)
... Marc
hult
Active Member
I would rather be disuaded from making a return because I misunderstood how to use a product and got put on the track to complete satisfaction , than to return it and have to start all over again with a different product that might be less suited than the original. What I don't have patience for anymore is to have to deal with someone who knows less than I do but is the person assigned to help me. If that's arrogant, so be it ;- )
So in the ideal world, the distributor (SH in this case) acknowledges that it doesn't have in-house expertise on a complicated, important, non-toy product, and refers the buyer to Someone Who Does Know (eg HAI). And the SWDK says "Lemme talk to your HVAC guy" -- the *other* SWDK -- who is put on track, the product properly configured, and everyone sings Kum Ba Yah - with an RMA, costly for everybody, averted.
For this to work, the manufacturer has to be able to provide a solution. And from all of what I've heard over the years about HAI, they do. (I'm a relative late-comer to all-in-one-panels having bought an Elk a couple of years ago and have no first-hand experience with HAI.) We've all had experiences where "call the manufacturer" is the beginninng of a run-around, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.
Some of us will recall the X-10 hometoy setback thermostat that lit a fire (figuratively) under the actual thermostat to provide a setback function. This isn't what we are discussing here. The Aprillaire/HAI/whichever thermostats need to work all the time 100% or could there be serious repercussions.
... Marc
The original poster's point, which should not get drowned out in all the "other discussion" remains that the LOWEST COST Elk-related solution appears to be the HAI thermostats @ $125 (street price) coupled with the M1XSP @ $78.50 (street price).
His real world goal was simple: to automate his two HVAC (single-stage units) house (total cost: $328.50/plus shipping). It's a real world example that applies to many, if not most people. I am glad he posted, because I absolutely will be doing the same.
Posting about more expensive solutions, or comparing one product's MSRP to another's Street Price, or citing features NOT SUPPORTED by the original poster's equipment seems to be obscuring a very useful topic.
Meanwhile, I am kicking myself for getting distracted last night and not following through on a closing ebay auction that finished with an RC-80B selling after one (the winning!) bid of $80...
hult
Active Member
Actually the original poster had three questions, not points. And the first had a misconception/misunderstanding embedded in the posing of it that was usefully clarified.
And his third question was
"3) What advantages do the expensive controller boxes give you over the HAI's?"
so it seems (to me at least) to be entirely appropriate to answer his question. Does it not seem so to you too?
Well, no. That was not his goal. He has a single stage and a heat pump for which he planned to buy the more expensive two-stage RC100B . If he bought two RC80B's as you seem to suggest, he'd end up having to try to return one.
Would posting about _less_ expensive solutions be real world? Or too obscuring?
For example, many folks have found that for many/most practical purposes, a set-back thermostat is as effective as more expensive solutions, There are/were setback thermostats that operate with simple contact closure, so assuming that one already has some DIO on the ELK, one could avoid buying the M1XSP altogether and get by with much less expensive t-stats.
And for your simple "two HVAC (single-stage units) house (total cost: $328.50/plus shipping)" scenario, one could simply add a second t-stat at each location and use the Elk DIO to switch relays between the two to provide the setback. One could do this for 1/10th the 'lowest' cost you cite ($328.50).
If lowest price on eBay is the applicable criterion, perhaps these new, $12, Buy-It-Now Honeywell set-back T-stats would be of interest . http://www.transtaracsupply.com/pdf/t874.pdf Hurry -- Only 95 available. Base not included. (Search eBay for Honeywell T874C1125 ) 'Course the eBay seller may jist be trying to get rid of the hazardous waste (mercury) in the least expensive way ...
All in good humour, right? ;-)
... Marc
Well, apparently not, I guess. See, I resurrected a thread from last FEBRUARY...specifically to clarify a point. I got my answer--THANKS! people who answered.
And then a few people basically trash the topic...
But hey, sorry to offend you...in the future, I'll try harder to avoid getting trolled...
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