[snip]
2) The RC-80B is a *single* stage thermostat whereas the Aprilaire 8870 (like its equivalent Enerzone predecessor) can handle *multi-stage* heating and cooling. So if you decide to upgrade from AC + gas to heat pump (+ gas or resistance electric) + AC, your RC-80 will become obsolete.
Ditto for adding active hot water heating. HAI devices that begin to be comparable in function to the 8870 are the RC-112B and RC-122B which are $217 at SH.
[snip]
Can the HAI stats operate as stand alone units. I would like to install these in my new home, but will not have time to hook them up to my elk before I move in.
That problem is solved very easily: Don't buy HAI from smarthome.
{snip]]
$30 cheaper at AO without the BS (unless for some reason HAI won't take returns from their distributors which sounds real strange) if you are not a licensed HVAC installer. I really don't understand that as there are a lot of other things on that site that are 'professional grade' that they will support (and four other sites did not have an equivalent note).
I will say that when I needed something from HAI (I have these thermostats), they responded promptly and shipped the part I was missing.
Just my opinion, but it seems a silly thing for Smarthome to do.
Excellent Points Marc.WOW, what a price difference between HAI and Aprilaire!!! What would we get out of the Aprilaire to justify this?
2 Aprilaire Thermostats setup with ELK-M1:
$200 2 8870 thermostat (on sale now. normally $230)
$100 1 8818 distibution panel
$100 1 8811 protocol adapter
$80 1 ELK M1XSP Serial Port Expander
----
$680 TOTAL
2 HAI Thermostats setup with ELK-M1:
$125 2 HAI RC-80B Thermostat
$80 1 ELK M1XSP Serial Port Expander
----
$330 TOTAL
edit: typos
Some points, with the caveat that that I have no experience whatever with the HAI or their t-stats but I have been using Enerzone Statnet devices (now Aprilaire) for almost 10 years. They have been supported by PC-based HA systems since before then.
1) The list price of the "$125" RC-80B is $184.50; Everyday price for the Aprilaire 8870 Communicating Thermostat is $199.95 at http://www.iautomate.com/8870.html
2) The RC-80B is a *single* stage thermostat whereas the Aprilaire 8870 (like its equivalent Enerzone predecessor) can handle *multi-stage* heating and cooling. So if you decide to upgrade from AC + gas to heat pump (+ gas or resistance electric) + AC, your RC-80 will become obsolete.
Ditto for adding active hot water heating. HAI devices that begin to be comparable in function to the 8870 are the RC-112B and RC-122B which are $217 at SH.
IOW, the 8870 provides the functionality of at least 4 different HAI models (including the RC-100B).
3) Also, you added into the cost of Aprilaire system a $100 8818 distibution panel which is completely unnecessary for a two or three or four thermostat 8870 system. IIRC, the 8818 is a passive 'device' that allows one to (dis)connect individual T-stats from the system for trouble-shooting. This is handy in an apartment complex with many (dozens?) thermostats but more of a nuisance (and expense) than it's worth for only 2-3 T-stats.
4) Also the Aprilaire uses RS-485 (the 8811 protocol adapter is a RS-232--> RS-485 adapter) exclusively. If you run into signal reliability issues with the RC-xxx's RS-232 comms, the factory fix is to buy a RC-202 RS-232 Serial Booster (list $100) or as I understand it, add an Omni panel ($) so as to be able to use RS-485 ? Whereas the Aprilaire obviates those problem by design, in advance, robustly by using RS-485.
5) The 8811 RS-232--> RS-485 adapter has the virtue that it electronically segments the RS-485 network. So shorts or other damage in one segment will not affect others. I dunno if that's the case with the HAI t-stats but it is another example of the robustness of the Enerzone/Aprilaire solution (IMO/E).
6) The Aprilaire/Enerzone/Statnet system allows addition of external and additional temperature sensors for averaging and humidity control without recourse to an Elk or Omni Pro or PC. I dunno what HAI t-stats _standalone_ capabilites are in this regard. If you have a heat pump, it becomes a significant issue. I want my HVAC systems to operate completely standalone is needed. It is not acceptable (to me) that it depend on an easily misprogrammed panel or PC.
7) The Aprilaire 8870, owing to its intrinsic flexibility and capabilities, is somewhat future-proofed. In any case in the context of the total cost to install and operate (!) two HVAC systems, the price difference (once corrected from what was posted) melts away.
Lastly, I like the Statnet/Aprilaire ASCII communication protocol enough to be contemplating adding other foreign gizmos to the network. Since the protocol can handle many devices, and existing devices will inherently ignore commands not addressed to them, one can build DIY devices (ADC, DAC, DIO, etc) that use that RS-485 network instead of reinventing the wheel and adding yet more hardware.
...Marc
Yup. But it may not be entirely Smarthome's doing. The folks with the technical expertise with HAI are at HAI, not Smarthome ... This might just be a more efficient was of getting customers' needs filled with fewer hoops. My experience with SmartHome is that they really always truly do _try_ , but ... it wouldn't even occur to me to call Smarthome with a technical question about Aprilaire ;-)
Excellent Points Marc.4) Also the Aprilaire uses RS-485 (the 8811 protocol adapter is a RS-232--> RS-485 adapter) exclusively. If you run into signal reliability issues with the RC-xxx's RS-232 comms, the factory fix is to buy a RC-202 RS-232 Serial Booster (list $100) or as I understand it, add an Omni panel ($) so as to be able to use RS-485 ? Whereas the Aprilaire obviates those problem by design, in advance, robustly by using RS-485.
5) The 8811 RS-232--> RS-485 adapter has the virtue that it electronically segments the RS-485 network. So shorts or other damage in one segment will not affect others. I dunno if that's the case with the HAI t-stats but it is another example of the robustness of the Enerzone/Aprilaire solution (IMO/E).
[snip]
Lastly, I like the Statnet/Aprilaire ASCII communication protocol enough to be contemplating adding other foreign gizmos to the network. Since the protocol can handle many devices, and existing devices will inherently ignore commands not addressed to them, one can build DIY devices (ADC, DAC, DIO, etc) that use that RS-485 network instead of reinventing the wheel and adding yet more hardware.
I am playing with the Beta flash (M1XSP) that allows text messaging to the 8870s. Once the bugs are worked out, we should be able to open up most of the features of the stat. The 8870 is by far the best looking and feature rich stat on the market. The tech support guys are great at helping out with their protocol spec.
-=*Sharby*=-
Yup. But it may not be entirely Smarthome's doing. The folks with the technical expertise with HAI are at HAI, not Smarthome ... This might just be a more efficient was of getting customers' needs filled with fewer hoops. My experience with SmartHome is that they really always truly do _try_ , but ... it wouldn't even occur to me to call Smarthome with a technical question about Aprilaire ;-)
Interesting comment, I was regarding the comment about not taking HAI returns. Directing technical support questions to the manufacturer is not unreasonable (as you note they may just not have it).
What I find 'wrong' is not taking returns for a product that a store sells (in this case Smarthome). With a breadth of products I don't think it is unreasonable to not provide detailed support for an item (although some companies do very well with this) and direct that to the manufacturer.
Just my two opinion.
I'm a little surprised that the RCS thermos (TR-16 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...t=85&page=1 and TR-40 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...=85&page=1) are being left out of this conversation.
They are competetively priced, can be used stand-alone, are capable of multistage cooling and heating, and communicate over 485 as well.
I'm a little surprised that the RCS thermos (TR-16 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...t=85&page=1 and TR-40 http://www.automatedoutlet.com/product.php...=85&page=1) are being left out of this conversation.
They are competetively priced, can be used stand-alone, are capable of multistage cooling and heating, and communicate over 485 as well.
The original poster's point, which should not get drowned out in all the "other discussion" remains that the LOWEST COST Elk-related solution appears to be the HAI thermostats @ $125 (street price) coupled with the M1XSP @ $78.50 (street price).
His real world goal was simple: to automate his two HVAC (single-stage units) house (total cost: $328.50/plus shipping).
It's a real world example that applies to many, if not most people. I am glad he posted, because I absolutely will be doing the same.
Posting about more expensive solutions, or comparing one product's MSRP to another's Street Price, or citing features NOT SUPPORTED by the original poster's equipment seems to be obscuring a very useful topic.
Meanwhile, I am kicking myself for getting distracted last night and not following through on a closing ebay auction that finished with an RC-80B selling after one (the winning!) bid of $80...
All in good humour, right? ;-)
... Marc